“If we want more growth, we need to allow creative destruction so new companies can deliver the productivity we need.”
Octopus energy ceo greg jackson
49-ton trucks in China running on batteries.
Sounds as stupid as Tesla Semi.
Yeah, how dare the 100% efficient, highest possible torque drivetrain type be used to move heavy vehicles. Those damn Chinese don’t know anything and are obviously fad chasers.
If we want more growth (…)
We don’t.
I want new businesses and people fuck vw gatekeeping an industry with mid products
More context:
“Incumbents crowd out the innovators in many sectors and markets,” Jackson said. “It wasn’t the Post Office [the U.K.’s public mail service] that invented email. The music industry held back streaming and digital music for 10 to 20 years. What you need is routes to market for new technologies, and I think that can be a challenge in Europe because so many of the big industries essentially have a stranglehold on policy.
“Economists have said that nearly all productivity growth comes from new companies. If we want more growth, we need to allow creative destruction so new companies can deliver the productivity we need.”
I think the target of the “creative destruction” here is the companies holding back growth in electrification.
The population tends to grow. Even if it stays stable, how do you envision the improvement of people’s quality of life without growth?
The population does not grow in most of the world anymore. Why do we need to improve people’s quality of life all the time? Why don’t we improve the sustainability of the quality we have right now? Because its abysmal and this will (or is it already ?) fuck up everybody’s quality of life for the next 100k years. Resources are limited and unlimited growth is not possible.
Because we dont all have a decent quality of life
Redistribution.
Growth is only at all needed, because of a certain group hoarding and wasting everything.
At the current rate, growth will end all life on our planet. Just a few more years of growth, and we’ll be past the ‘no way back’ line.
Can’t ideal communist economies also have growth? Can growth come from efficiency improvements rather than resource consumption increase?
Sure, theoretically, after everything else has been solved and it’s what’s desired. The goal of communism is a sustainable (as much as there can be in a universe with entropy) way of life where no one goes without what they need to live. Let’s figure that part out before exploring exponential growth, instead of the other way around.
Both are possible
Start killing old people people or change the retirement age to 80 and put very severe wealth caps in place then. The entire retirement system is based on growth, doesn’t even matter if capitalism or not, because it involves a large group of people living off the backs of others. It was fine when the economy and population was still growing, now it’s getting oppressive.
“If we want more growth, we need to allow creative destruction so new companies can deliver the productivity we need.”
Octopus energy ceo greg jackson
Well I don’t really want more growth or “creative destruction.”
What if it’s growth in renewables and destruction of the fossil fuel industry?
Not really. Many of us have known for a long time that electrification was the obvious way forward. The reason others don’t is that the O&G industry are hindering progress through media.
This article implies that industries such as this are what would need to be creatively destroyed to enable progress in electrification.
“Incumbents crowd out the innovators in many sectors and markets… so many of the big industries essentially have a stranglehold on policy”
Also the USD was backed by oil. The US would never allow countries to truly decarbonize since it undermines the value of the dollar.
“allow countries” - 😆 that isn’t how world politics works
Are you at all familiar with the last 80 years of world politics? Or the function of the CIA?
Effectively it does, we are so dependent on thebus in so many ways, whenever we do something they dont like, they threaten to take something away or increase tariffs. In the end europe caves.
deleted by creator
So we don’t have Galileo for example, stopped supporting Ukraine and supported the Iran war efforts of the US like in Iraq?
That isn’t what “allowing” means. And there is no caving. These are all ongoing negotiations and things keep changing.
Somehow US media always brings those “why Europe sucks at things” articles, even on topics where the EU is actually holding up substantially better than the US, like electrification of road vehicles of all categories and domestic industries staying in that business. That said, Europe is certainly in a death struggle against Chinese competition but things are not nearly looking as lost as with the domestic US industry in the sector.
I really do not like people boasting about how foreign dictatorships are doing everything better while bashing our local democracies. If this guy wants to see an electric truck, he can simply walk onto European streets. They are there. And they are available from those “incubent manufacturers” that he bashes in the article.
You have more freedom and choice here than in Europe. Get educated and visit China. And stop regurgitating the western propaganda about dictatorship.
Shall we talk about what China is doing to the Uigurs, what happened on tiananmen square in 1989 and how many people Mao killed? Or about the corruption in the higher levels of the KPCh? Let’s have a free discussion between free citizens here without our governments intervening!
Shall we talk about what China is doing to the Uigurs
Sure. According to the UN, UK, and every single independent investigatory body not currently operated by the CIA, China imprisoned more Uyghurs than necessary in the 1990s and held them in prisons below EU standards but above US standards. At this time there is no evidence of genocide, nor is there evidence of continued discrimination.
what happened on tiananmen square in 1989
Sure, let’s talk about ‘Peaceful’ “college” “students” stealing rifles from a military base and shooting unarmed police, resulting in a militarized response to minimize casualties.
how many people Mao killed?
Lots of people die in a revolutionary war, that is the purpose of them.
Or about the corruption in the higher levels of the KPCh
You are only aware of that because of the anti-corruption policies of the modern CPC; which has resulted in dozens of arrests and executions. Your press calls it “Xi killing non-loyalists.”
There are 50 ton e-trucks available and rolling in Europe? Please, tell me more. That is very interesting.
Electric Trucks are limited to 42 tons in the EU and there are good reasons for that. That really doesn’t change much in this argument - we also do no have those australian road trains and that is also fine
Regardless, which manufacturers are putting these machines on the market?
Just recently I was talking with a professional trucker, who owns a small fleet, and when mentioned reading on projects to develop such vehicles, he denied even the notion itself. And this is a man being hard pressed to keep his business afloat.
Well, then this guy is not good at his job. You can buy the eActros from Mercedes Benz for example. And most manufacturers have an electric truck on the market. You can see this on the map above: If 18% of new trucks in the netherlands or 7% in Germany are electric, somebody has to produce those vehicles and put them onto the market. If a professional trucker can’t see that, he is really incompetent at buying trucks.
I’ll put that towards local market fighting to keep the status quo and people resisting change; most small truckers buy second hand trucks and are extremely wary of change. I’m in Portugal.
Mercedes-Benz eActros, Iveco S-eWay, MAN eTGX, Volvo FH electric, …
Watch the Elektrotrucker on Youtube if you want to know more about it. Channel is in German, he is at the moment on a round-the-world trip with an eActros. https://www.youtube.com/@elektrotrucker
He does English dubs for the more popular videos though.
I really do not like people boasting about how foreign dictatorships are doing everything better while bashing our local democracies.
I mean, electrification is one area where China is significantly and undoubtedly outdoing every single democracy out there. How democratic China is has no bearing on that fact.
Norway walks into the room.
How democratic China is has no bearing on that fact.
It does matter because this is totally what chinese state propaganda is broadcasting to the world. The old playbook the soviets have been doing
If your neighbor is putting up two solar panels, and you’re just putting up one, someone might say that your neighbor is doing more than you to electrify.
If your response is, “But they’re bragging about it! It’s propaganda! They’re a bad person!” then it kind of sounds like you’re just salty about the electrification thing.
That might be but then you have Audi with 87% less profit compared to the year before and that’s not Chinese propaganda. He might be wrong about the trucks but he isn’t about electrification.
It also happens to be true.
They also are using a ton of coal and oil to recharge them.
They get away with looking better on per capita CO2 production because they have such a huge population, but it’s not all solar panels and rainbows there by any means.
Even then EVs are better because they’re more efficient (requiring less fossil fuels per unit distance), but also almost half of China’s energy comes from green energy. Taken together this is objectively good.
ah yes, the old soviet ploy to make the everyone think their society is flourishing by… improving their society. damn sneaky commies
Yeah, improve society by murdering millions of people. And the result was really worth it because Russia or East Germany were really awesome places with a high standard of living in 1989.
electrification and movement from fossil fuels to renewables benefits more than just people in china, climate change is coming for everyone. any country (/especially/ one doing manufacturing for others) that is making strides like this should be learned from.
It works every single time. It’s so sad.
America’s perennial trend of bombing foreign nations is so much better at… creating dead children.
I don’t know if I agree. A dictatorship decides to make more batteries and so the industry bends. Land is taken by the state to build mines. Little regard for the people or the environment.
All of this makes it easier for China to just move to electric, and part of why the EVs they export are so cheap.
They subsidise by environmental impact and possibly human suffering.* Not to mention they own the battery market.
Land is taken by the state to build mines. Little regard for the people or the environment.
spoiler
The answer is yes, it is a bourgeoisie democracy; a dictatorship of capital.
I don’t think there’s a country in the developed world with a government that finds it distasteful to subsidize the consumption of their populace with environmental and human suffering. Moral superiority isn’t the difference being spotlit here. I think China just controls more manufacturing of its own which makes pivoting their society more efficient
The question was about politics and economics, not morals.
I would hope not supporting suffering and destruction doesn’t need to be explicitly stated to be understood.Meanwhile the UK has royalty that live in opulent luxury whilst the working-class dwells in poverty. Their hayday of wildly looting and enslaving foreign nations is over. They have nothing.
I’m not sure the argument “EVs are bad for the environment actually” works as well as you think it does.
I wasn’t arguing that. The way China mines and processes lithium for battery manufacture, in which they’re the leading exporter by far due to their rich rare earth deposits, is destroying the surrounding areas.
That’s fair, but my point is: Is there any way to make lithium ion batteries otherwise? Like is there any evidence that for instance Australian lithium is “greener” so to speak?
I see, yes my understanding is that the process can be a lot cleaner and other countries do it (like the US), China just chooses to take cheap shortcuts to take stranglehold of the market, which they now have.
Do you have any sources which elaborate on this?
It at the same time sounds A) possible, and B) like the kind of thing that someone should support with evidence.
LMFAO! Wait until you read about the industrial revolution and the environmental destruction caused by Great Britain. Go suck your king’s cock.
Great contribution to the conversation
Europe’s washed up–capitalist liberal democracies can’t exist without looting. Each nation now wants to pivot towards war to begin the looting process again. Enjoy your austerity budgets. Meanwhile China will keep on winning.
Have been seeing e-Atros in Switzerland and Germany daily during my commutes this year, they are everywhere if you keep your eyes open.
Small sample from the US but I’ve seen some all-electric Penske trucks making deliveries to nearby warehouses. Day-cab semis with full 52’ trailers
https://www.pensketruckleasing.com/truck-leasing/leasing-services/electric-vehicles/
Penske doesn’t make trucks.
Peterbuilt has several EV models. So does MAC. The industry started R&D in electrics years ago.
True but the batteries in them still are from china.
Why has your map removed parts of Europe?
zealandosis
EU map
Wrong. What about Norway and Iceland? Why are they included?
It is a map of the EEA, which is EU + EFTA*
'* excluding CH, since they voted no.
Oh, hey another grouping of European countries that I didn’t know yet!
Is Liechtenstein included in this or not?
You can find the answer to that question and many others in the Wikipedia article on European integration.
That diagram is amazing.
The complexity - lol…
Yes, Liechtenstein is included. The Swiss voted against it in 1992, whereas the Liechtensteiners voted in favor.
I had to check because I was not sure but interestingly enough Liechtenstein is in fact member of the EEA, while Switzerland is not, even though Liechtenstein is in a customs and monetary union with Switzerland.
Bad news Norway…
It’s some weird map, looks to be Schengen with Switzerland removed and Ireland and Iceland added…
Iceland is part of Schengen
Have you been to China? It’s not a dictatorship.
He’s simply saying Europe is dragging it’s feet and allowing legacy companies to dictate the path to electrification.
Can’t read the graph but seems woeful for non scandi countries. Fact is the EU could be doing way better to stimulate green tech.
Have you been to China? It’s not a dictatorship.
It is a dictatorship, that’s basically a fact. It’s just a much better ran dictatorship than Russia. Sometimes the king is competent & even benevolent & so the kingdom can thrive.
Having been to China has very little to do with this, yes China has amazing infrastructure & whatever else, but this is not an argument in the dictatorship debate, in math terms A is true, B is true, but there is no connection.ACTCHULLY I’ve been to China, and since I’ve been that means it’s not. I just walked off the plane and they said, “Wow. This white guy arrived in our country, we are going to overthrow our government and implement a democracy - the best the worlds ever seen.”
My first night in China they all whipped out there phones and voted. 100% turnout. 100% of the votes went to the benevolent dictator. Fundamentally nothing changed. But I’m the reason why China has a democracy now.
Yeah apologies. I was wrong.
I appreciate your willingness to learn and admit this so readily, don’t get me wrong. But how did you get here to this point without realizing China is a dictatorship?
I think when i saw the original comment I didn’t think it was fair to lump China in with the Gulf states as a dictatorship. I knew it was a communist, one party state but thought they wouldn’t classify themselves as a dictatorship.
In my other comment I looked it up and China does indeed call themselves a “people’s democratic dictatorship”.
Just got confused by all the terminology.
But the terminology doesn’t really matter, most especially what they call THEMSELVES.
Honestly, sorry, not trying to come across as hostile at all it’s just kinda truly confounding. China exerts far greater direct control over its citizens than any Gulf state.
North Korea calls itself the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, btw
No worries, no hostility!
I think it’s hard because I’ve been there and saw a well functioning country where the people are happy and looked after. Public infrastructure was excellent. Certainly didn’t feel like a dictatorship.
As you say, terminology doesn’t really matter. Every system of governance is susceptible to corruption. From my POV I see China as a country that wants the best for it’s people. I see the flaws of democracy when targeted by extremely wealthy corporations and people.
Don’t get me wrong China has it’s flaws too. But to me it’s doing way better than the US, and the EU should look to strengthen ties.
AI Bot?
Okay I am very impressed at what China is achieving in many fields and it’s truly more than impressive. I have lived in China for a year and I have going back a few times since. It is a dictatorship and you can fuck right off to .ml of you think otherwise
Apologies. Looked it up and you’re right! China is a self described dictatorship. Just a dictatorship of the people.
Is China a Dictatorship?
Given the degree of censorship and control China’s government leverages over its citizens, most political experts would call it a dictatorship. China’s constitution calls its government a “people’s democratic dictatorship.” This may sound like a contradiction of terms to many people. The premise of the “people’s democratic dictatorship” is that the Chinese Party of China and the state represent and act on behalf of the people, but possess and may use powers against reactionary forces. The People’s Republic of China is currently ruled by President Xi Jinping, who also serves as the General Secretary of the Communist Party of China, Chairman of the Central Military Commission, the country’s Vice President, the President of the Central Party School, and the 1st ranked member of the CPC Politburo Standing Committee.
Thank the right-wingers and conservatives who undermine green efforts at every turn.
Yeah and it is telling that you weren’t convinced by an affordable, simple and cheap electric hatchback commuter car, asshole.
