Really? Muslim = religious person? Can you perhaps explain why I as a life long atheist am always called a Muslim because of my west asian heritage? Or why my Lebanese christian friends are always labelled as Muslim? How do you think people who always harp on sending Muslims back to where they came from are planning to identify a Muslim? Presumably, it’s not gonna be written on people’s foreheads whether they’re religious or not, and there aren’t any registries that identify religious people. So how would that work, if not by identifying Muslims based on where they are from geographically? If Muslim equals religious, then Israeli equals religious.
West asian, north african, will be terms to refer to a person living in that geographic area.
Arab might refer to a ethnicity.
Israeli will be a nationality.
So there’s is possible to be a west asian, arab, Israeli Muslim. None of those terms are exclusive.
Some are almost inclusive. As I would think all Israelies are West Asians, and most of them would be ethnic arabs if I recall correctly.
At least that would be the meaning of those words in English language. If someone wants to be racist and think that anyone coming from some country or ethnicity is a muslim is their problem, and they are on the wrong.
I’m sorry that you’ve experienced racist stereotypes.
On the topic of the Israeli/Jewish distinction, it might surprise you to know there are Muslim Israelis. They’re a minority and normally treated like second class citizens, but they exist and they have citizenship. As I hope you know, there are also Jewish non-Israelis. Some of them, myself included, are even actively anti-zionist. The common association is that Israeli = Jew, but as I hope I’ve explained citizenship doesn’t necessarily determine religion, and conversely religion doesn’t determine citizenship.
I was solely referring to the equation above my first comment, that Muslim means religious while Israeli doesn’t mean religious. My point was, you can’t have one but not the other. Obviously, I disagree with Muslim meaning religious, as my experience is muslim in western society generally refers to a brown person from west asia, irrespective of their religion or how religious they are. Therefore, I also disagree with Israeli meaning religious, since there are plenty of non practicing Jewish Israelis. Furthermore, even accepting that Muslim equals religious, I don’t see why that would explain the answer google gives in the post to call 911.
I’m also well aware of all the non Israeli Jews, particularly in light of the most prominent anti-zionist people I know of being Jewish. A lot of my political views of Israel have been informed by Chomsky and Finkelstein. So I hope my comment didn’t come across as me being anti-jewish, and I apologize if it did.
Interestingly, a reply to my comment asks if I ‘present’ myself as being muslim when I meet people. Very revealing, as I don’t know how someone presents as Muslim, beyond being brown and vaguely west asian. There isn’t exactly a Muslim uniform that I’m aware of. But that’s the environment we live in. Be brown, be west asian, and you’re Muslim no matter your religion or lack thereof. Be an Indian Muslim or an Indonesian muslim, and you won’t be ‘presenting’ as Muslim.
Sorry, I obviously read too much into the final sentence of that comment.
People are obviously free to use, remake and mold language as they see fit. If that’s the way you’re using Muslim, then go for it. As a piece of friendly advice, because of common usage, don’t be surprised that people understand that word differently.
The stereotyping of brown skin = follower of islam (to use your terminology) I can 100% understand being very frustrating and annoying. For people that have given this more than 10 femtoseconds of thought, it’s obviously ridiculous to “present” as any particular religion outside of wearing traditional religious garb or wearing religious symbols.
Though in Israel, Israeli nationality (which there, unlike pretty much the rest of the World, is a different thing from citizenship) by the country’s own constitution is something only a Jewish person can have.
So one can indeed be a Muslim citizen of Israel but one cannot be an Israeli national unless one is a Jew.
Ultimatelly and going back to the original post, does “Israeli” there stand for “Israeli citizen” or “Israeli national”?
I’ve never heard of that distinction. When I’m talking about Israelis, I mean Israeli citizens (and I’m relatively confident most others do as well). What does an Israeli national have in terms of rights and responsibilities that a citizen doesnt?
Fair enough. I’ve seen countless examples of citizens in the same country not having access to the same services, resources and in some cases even legal recourse as other citizens. Reminds me of some pictures of “White residents only” signs I saw from Jim Crow era US.
If that’s the way you’re using the distinction, then yeah, it’s functionally the same as being discriminated against and a second-class citizen.
110% agree. But I know the catholics do actually keep a membership registry. And I’m assuming those big mega churches do too for donation purposes as well.
When you refer to you Lebanese friends, do you call them Lebanese Christian Muslims? Do you present yourself as a Muslim to people? If they mislabel you, correct them.
If Israeli equals religious, then the bullshit antisemitism claim becomes actually valid. We don’t need to redefine words to suit the taste of a bunch of rascists and genocidal warmongers.
Jews are an ethnic, religious and racial group from what I understand. Israel is not a synonym for Jew, it’s a nationality. The words aren’t interchangable is my point.
You are technically correct but it’s just a talking point right-wingers use to justify their racism and discrimination against brown people.
In practice discrimination against brown people is often done under the guise of them being Muslim without that being the actual reason. Or in countries like France by exclusively picking attributes which mostly apply to brown people such as their religion and then using that as a bat against them.
It seems other people are the ones enabling that racism? People being downvoted are saying Muslim =/= being brown, people being upvoted are saying it’s the same. Conflating the two is what encourages/enables racism. It also makes it easier to spot the racists if we respect the definition and keep it separate.
And every religion can be criticized, Islam is no different.
Ya 100%. I guess we here on lemmy should be more discerning of the difference is all. It’s weird because I’m not trying to defend what the original commenter was saying (how google is somehow in the right because in one result they talk about religion and an other they talk about a nation, pure gibberish imo).
It’s also been kind of “taught” in society that being non-spanish brown = Muslim. Anecdotally, I caught myself calling my Christian Lebanese friend a Muslim when talking about her family. I corrected myself and she wasn’t offended but still, imperialist propoganda really did a number on our society.
Sorry I may be making the same mistake. Can you explain the difference? I have been using those terms interchangeably, what is a Muslim if not a follower of Islam?
That is literally what it is. Why are people so hell bent and stubborn on being ignorant? You can look it up in 5 seconds. Wikipedia, Merriam Webster, and Encyclopedia Britannica will all tell you this.
Really? Muslim = religious person? Can you perhaps explain why I as a life long atheist am always called a Muslim because of my west asian heritage? Or why my Lebanese christian friends are always labelled as Muslim? How do you think people who always harp on sending Muslims back to where they came from are planning to identify a Muslim? Presumably, it’s not gonna be written on people’s foreheads whether they’re religious or not, and there aren’t any registries that identify religious people. So how would that work, if not by identifying Muslims based on where they are from geographically? If Muslim equals religious, then Israeli equals religious.
Muslim is a person who follow islam.
West asian, north african, will be terms to refer to a person living in that geographic area.
Arab might refer to a ethnicity.
Israeli will be a nationality.
So there’s is possible to be a west asian, arab, Israeli Muslim. None of those terms are exclusive.
Some are almost inclusive. As I would think all Israelies are West Asians, and most of them would be ethnic arabs if I recall correctly.
At least that would be the meaning of those words in English language. If someone wants to be racist and think that anyone coming from some country or ethnicity is a muslim is their problem, and they are on the wrong.
I’m sorry that you’ve experienced racist stereotypes.
On the topic of the Israeli/Jewish distinction, it might surprise you to know there are Muslim Israelis. They’re a minority and normally treated like second class citizens, but they exist and they have citizenship. As I hope you know, there are also Jewish non-Israelis. Some of them, myself included, are even actively anti-zionist. The common association is that Israeli = Jew, but as I hope I’ve explained citizenship doesn’t necessarily determine religion, and conversely religion doesn’t determine citizenship.
I was solely referring to the equation above my first comment, that Muslim means religious while Israeli doesn’t mean religious. My point was, you can’t have one but not the other. Obviously, I disagree with Muslim meaning religious, as my experience is muslim in western society generally refers to a brown person from west asia, irrespective of their religion or how religious they are. Therefore, I also disagree with Israeli meaning religious, since there are plenty of non practicing Jewish Israelis. Furthermore, even accepting that Muslim equals religious, I don’t see why that would explain the answer google gives in the post to call 911.
I’m also well aware of all the non Israeli Jews, particularly in light of the most prominent anti-zionist people I know of being Jewish. A lot of my political views of Israel have been informed by Chomsky and Finkelstein. So I hope my comment didn’t come across as me being anti-jewish, and I apologize if it did.
Interestingly, a reply to my comment asks if I ‘present’ myself as being muslim when I meet people. Very revealing, as I don’t know how someone presents as Muslim, beyond being brown and vaguely west asian. There isn’t exactly a Muslim uniform that I’m aware of. But that’s the environment we live in. Be brown, be west asian, and you’re Muslim no matter your religion or lack thereof. Be an Indian Muslim or an Indonesian muslim, and you won’t be ‘presenting’ as Muslim.
Sorry, I obviously read too much into the final sentence of that comment.
People are obviously free to use, remake and mold language as they see fit. If that’s the way you’re using Muslim, then go for it. As a piece of friendly advice, because of common usage, don’t be surprised that people understand that word differently.
The stereotyping of brown skin = follower of islam (to use your terminology) I can 100% understand being very frustrating and annoying. For people that have given this more than 10 femtoseconds of thought, it’s obviously ridiculous to “present” as any particular religion outside of wearing traditional religious garb or wearing religious symbols.
This is why it’s so important to talk about zionism/zionists - the genocidal ideology that’s the heart of the problem.
Many jews are anti-zionist and the vast majority of zionists in USA are christian.
Christians fucking up shit once again.
Though in Israel, Israeli nationality (which there, unlike pretty much the rest of the World, is a different thing from citizenship) by the country’s own constitution is something only a Jewish person can have.
So one can indeed be a Muslim citizen of Israel but one cannot be an Israeli national unless one is a Jew.
Ultimatelly and going back to the original post, does “Israeli” there stand for “Israeli citizen” or “Israeli national”?
I’ve never heard of that distinction. When I’m talking about Israelis, I mean Israeli citizens (and I’m relatively confident most others do as well). What does an Israeli national have in terms of rights and responsibilities that a citizen doesnt?
If I remember it correctly it’s things like regional authorities being able to refuse residence in their region to mere citizens but not to nationals.
Mind you, it’s been some years since I saw the documentary about the whole thing.
Fair enough. I’ve seen countless examples of citizens in the same country not having access to the same services, resources and in some cases even legal recourse as other citizens. Reminds me of some pictures of “White residents only” signs I saw from Jim Crow era US.
If that’s the way you’re using the distinction, then yeah, it’s functionally the same as being discriminated against and a second-class citizen.
110% agree. But I know the catholics do actually keep a membership registry. And I’m assuming those big mega churches do too for donation purposes as well.
When you refer to you Lebanese friends, do you call them Lebanese Christian Muslims? Do you present yourself as a Muslim to people? If they mislabel you, correct them.
If Israeli equals religious, then the bullshit antisemitism claim becomes actually valid. We don’t need to redefine words to suit the taste of a bunch of rascists and genocidal warmongers.
Does it? I thought that antisemitism was about ethnicity, not religion or nationality.
Jews are an ethnic, religious and racial group from what I understand. Israel is not a synonym for Jew, it’s a nationality. The words aren’t interchangable is my point.
You are technically correct but it’s just a talking point right-wingers use to justify their racism and discrimination against brown people.
In practice discrimination against brown people is often done under the guise of them being Muslim without that being the actual reason. Or in countries like France by exclusively picking attributes which mostly apply to brown people such as their religion and then using that as a bat against them.
It seems other people are the ones enabling that racism? People being downvoted are saying Muslim =/= being brown, people being upvoted are saying it’s the same. Conflating the two is what encourages/enables racism. It also makes it easier to spot the racists if we respect the definition and keep it separate.
And every religion can be criticized, Islam is no different.
Ya 100%. I guess we here on lemmy should be more discerning of the difference is all. It’s weird because I’m not trying to defend what the original commenter was saying (how google is somehow in the right because in one result they talk about religion and an other they talk about a nation, pure gibberish imo).
It’s also been kind of “taught” in society that being non-spanish brown = Muslim. Anecdotally, I caught myself calling my Christian Lebanese friend a Muslim when talking about her family. I corrected myself and she wasn’t offended but still, imperialist propoganda really did a number on our society.
Yes.
Yes. Like “Christian” but with a different faith. It’s a religious term.
✋☝️🤫 I’ll stop you right there.
It’s racism. It’s because of that.
Have a nice day, brother or other.
Edit:
No, because there’s no country called “Muslia”, or “Islamia” or anything. But there is a country called Israel.
Disclaimer: fuck Israel. I’m just saying, this is what these words mean.
Edit 2: more people
down voting than up votingchoosing ignorance over truth, fair enough, go ahead.You are confusing being Muslim with following Islam.
🤷♂️
Then what is a Muslim if not that? Several of us want to know. Please reply.
Sorry I may be making the same mistake. Can you explain the difference? I have been using those terms interchangeably, what is a Muslim if not a follower of Islam?
That is literally what it is. Why are people so hell bent and stubborn on being ignorant? You can look it up in 5 seconds. Wikipedia, Merriam Webster, and Encyclopedia Britannica will all tell you this.