Yes, we know establishment dems are also pro israel.
Are you actively trying to help tank dem chances in the mid terms? Do you think repubs will be better?
I don’t get the desired effect of this comment other than to make people depressed and sad and not bother voting for the least bad option which will have the effect of allowing the more bad option to win. I get the “burn it down” team, but there are lots of us who aren’t there and think that’s going to be miserable for ages.
But we have hope. There’s been a surge of SocDems winning and they are making waves, getting positive press, and the republicans have shat the bed so bad that their base is noticing.
You can also help instead of harm by joining your local democratic organization, helping find better candidates to vote for and supporting them, and voting in the primaries. If you’re not doing all of that, then please be quiet.
paraphrased: “Things are bad there, but we can make things bad here too so that things are just bad everywhere and people will suddenly revolt”
I’m in my local org, promoting candidates I want before we get to the national level. What have YOU done other than comments on a forum a few thousand (mostly already on your side) people will see? I’m pro Palestine and anti-genocide, but I don’t see a way to _get there_ without adding violence without aiming for grass-roots level activism. Hence the point of my comment. The republicans did it; stop fighting me and fucking help.
Can we not agree that genocide is bad, the established leadership is bad, that we can find and elect better people, and that we can use momentum to get good things done? To me, the alternative is hopeless despair and just giving up.
Is that what you’re selling? Because that seems fucked up and I’m not buying. Because Fucking Please - tell me how you are are solving the genocide right now.
Your chance to fix this
My personal choices in both those years was not one of the options. So I voted, effectively the limit of my personal power since I’m not a billionaire, for the one closest to that. I’m one of ~350M people and I have an outsized impact because I’m trying to influence others.
you’re locked in.
Guess I should stop trying to push people to get more involved… I’m sure that will fix it.
Organization and preparing dual power is more important than ever. That’s why I spend a good deal of my time and money on.
without adding violence
I mean, I don’t necessarily agree with that myself, but I’m not demanding others make that choice.
I am saying that putting hopes on only electoralism is not a good idea. And particularly if you’re not going to actually challenge the current Democratic party, but continue the absolutely failed strategy of the US left in falling in line with it. 2020 should have taught anyone that.
The republicans did it; stop fighting me and fucking help
I’m quite willing to help, and I’ve been doing it for decades. Part of why I’m bothering to spend my time arguing (instead of working on plenty of other projects I do contribute to in my community) is because this is important. The tactic of lesser evil is not only not helping, it is ACTIVELY hurting the cause.
I’m sure that will fix it.
My advice to anyone in the US is to either get ou if you can - or get armed and organized. That’s what I mean by you’re locked in - the time where voting someone nice in was going to resolve this and give the empire a gentle landing is probably gone. The diesel prices are up and ain’t coming down.
I like the discourse - it can teach me, it can teach you, it can teach others who are staying quiet - it’s why I engage with the possible trolls. I apologize for my tone. I’m frustrated.
I’d like to point out, though, that you have changed your argument.
My original point was, paraphrased: if genocide is your #1 issue, there’s a clear party that will make things worse, and a party that will likely maintain the existing problems. With regards specifically to voting in the US mid terms, there are effectively three choices: Vote republican, vote democratic, don’t vote. Two of those 3 choices will likely result in the genocide getting worse. Anyone implying, in this context, that Biden was ‘just as bad’ is “ACTIVELY hurting the cause” as you put it, as it will potentially reduce democratic turnout and increase the chances republicans retain power. Republicans in power will result in making things worse. Proof: The last two years.
If you can’t see that causal effect, then I can’t help you. This is not a ‘my side might not win’, this is ‘my side winning is the better of the outcomes even if it’s not a fix’. And it’s not even a ‘my side’ because they don’t represent me completely – they are just closer to what I want than the other team and our politics are very A vs B.
Now, am I advocating that people should just vote dem and pretend they’ve washed their hands of the issue? No. The best time to be involved was in 2014, or maybe 1914. The next best time to be involved was in 2016, 2018, 2020, etc. Vote for least harm in the election, but then help find and elect better candidates. We are seeing this working. Look to New York City. Do the SocDems own the party yet? No, but they are gaining traction. Erasing that gain via demoralization is harmful.
You pivoted away from the genocide issue, though, and into the broader issue of US politics being messed up. I suggested there was no other path forward other than one involving revolt and violence. You stated “get [out] if you can - or get armed and organized”. Neither of those really work:
Leaving the country, if you can and many cannot, just reduces the power of the side wanting to deescalate. ‘Fuck this, I’m out’ doesn’t work on a global scale… Moving to Sweden and letting the US self destruct will likely result in bad outcomes for everyone.*
Arm and Organize is the violence option. I recognize that it’s important, but I’m trying to avoid getting to a civil war kind of stage.
*I live in a purple state. I fully understand the people that move away to a blue state, but all that does is concentrate the votes in a way that advantages the red voters. This is just how our system works**. Expand this to a world stage to consider people leaving the US.I don’t judge those people, but staying put is a sacrifice I’m willing to make myself if it prevents the violence others advocate; the violence that will occur if the US manages to become entrapped by the current republican party. They have clearly stated that democrats are less than human, so once there’s no check on their power they will try to kill us and we’ll have to fight back.
**If anything, democratic voters need to move into red states and make everyone purple. I did the math a while ago, and I’m not doing it again, but the margin in some house district in like Montana was <1000. 1000 Californians moving would flip a house seat forever, and likely make life in that city more vibrant. Scale that up to states and eventually, we’d get discourse back to a point where things weren’t so polarized. I know this is a dream, though.
I’m open to other ways to fix things. I just don’t see them. We either do it via legal channels like elections or shoot all the fascists, and I’m not there yet and afraid of what will happen if we get there.
What is your suggestion? Where’s the middle ground where you don’t advocate for violence?
(You can quote me and refute or respond to my claims. Before you do that, though, propose your solution.)
Well Republicans may be actively killing Americans, cutting all research funding and solar and infrastructure, ruining trade relations, starting and continuing several wars, doing exactly as much as the dems do on Israel, just with even more support towards it, making bills to say trans people are mentally ill, pushing religion in schools, cutting education, and about 1000 other literally evil things.
BUT! dems support Israel instead of Russia. Who cares about the Iran war I guess. They also only passed 7 huge bills while having a tiny majority. Both sides.
I’ll just go ahead and admit it. Let’s lay it all out. Straight up: I won’t be voting for Biden this election and I hope no else does either.
But yeah I really wish he wasn’t running for president again…in a midterm election. Cause if he wasn’t then I’d say we could at least vent honestly a little about the heinous things he was involved in with out being brow beat about it. Bad mouthing the party in general? Yeah probably not the best thing to be doing now. But Biden? Nah fuck him.
He just erased
From: Bidenand put his name.We’ve gotta stop doing this chatter.
Yes, we know establishment dems are also pro israel.
Are you actively trying to help tank dem chances in the mid terms? Do you think repubs will be better?
I don’t get the desired effect of this comment other than to make people depressed and sad and not bother voting for the least bad option which will have the effect of allowing the more bad option to win. I get the “burn it down” team, but there are lots of us who aren’t there and think that’s going to be miserable for ages.
But we have hope. There’s been a surge of SocDems winning and they are making waves, getting positive press, and the republicans have shat the bed so bad that their base is noticing.
You can also help instead of harm by joining your local democratic organization, helping find better candidates to vote for and supporting them, and voting in the primaries. If you’re not doing all of that, then please be quiet.
“guys, I know they support the genocide, but my team might lose if you don’t stop talking about it!”
Your chance to fix this was in 2016. Last one was in 2020.
At this point, you’re locked in.
This is the ‘burn it down’ crowd comment.
paraphrased: “Things are bad there, but we can make things bad here too so that things are just bad everywhere and people will suddenly revolt”
I’m in my local org, promoting candidates I want before we get to the national level. What have YOU done other than comments on a forum a few thousand (mostly already on your side) people will see? I’m pro Palestine and anti-genocide, but I don’t see a way to _get there_ without adding violence without aiming for grass-roots level activism. Hence the point of my comment. The republicans did it; stop fighting me and fucking help.
Can we not agree that genocide is bad, the established leadership is bad, that we can find and elect better people, and that we can use momentum to get good things done? To me, the alternative is hopeless despair and just giving up.
Is that what you’re selling? Because that seems fucked up and I’m not buying. Because Fucking Please - tell me how you are are solving the genocide right now.
My personal choices in both those years was not one of the options. So I voted, effectively the limit of my personal power since I’m not a billionaire, for the one closest to that. I’m one of ~350M people and I have an outsized impact because I’m trying to influence others.
Guess I should stop trying to push people to get more involved… I’m sure that will fix it.
No, I never advocate despair.
Organization and preparing dual power is more important than ever. That’s why I spend a good deal of my time and money on.
I mean, I don’t necessarily agree with that myself, but I’m not demanding others make that choice.
I am saying that putting hopes on only electoralism is not a good idea. And particularly if you’re not going to actually challenge the current Democratic party, but continue the absolutely failed strategy of the US left in falling in line with it. 2020 should have taught anyone that.
I’m quite willing to help, and I’ve been doing it for decades. Part of why I’m bothering to spend my time arguing (instead of working on plenty of other projects I do contribute to in my community) is because this is important. The tactic of lesser evil is not only not helping, it is ACTIVELY hurting the cause.
My advice to anyone in the US is to either get ou if you can - or get armed and organized. That’s what I mean by you’re locked in - the time where voting someone nice in was going to resolve this and give the empire a gentle landing is probably gone. The diesel prices are up and ain’t coming down.
I like the discourse - it can teach me, it can teach you, it can teach others who are staying quiet - it’s why I engage with the possible trolls. I apologize for my tone. I’m frustrated.
I’d like to point out, though, that you have changed your argument.
My original point was, paraphrased: if genocide is your #1 issue, there’s a clear party that will make things worse, and a party that will likely maintain the existing problems. With regards specifically to voting in the US mid terms, there are effectively three choices: Vote republican, vote democratic, don’t vote. Two of those 3 choices will likely result in the genocide getting worse. Anyone implying, in this context, that Biden was ‘just as bad’ is “ACTIVELY hurting the cause” as you put it, as it will potentially reduce democratic turnout and increase the chances republicans retain power. Republicans in power will result in making things worse. Proof: The last two years.
If you can’t see that causal effect, then I can’t help you. This is not a ‘my side might not win’, this is ‘my side winning is the better of the outcomes even if it’s not a fix’. And it’s not even a ‘my side’ because they don’t represent me completely – they are just closer to what I want than the other team and our politics are very A vs B.
Now, am I advocating that people should just vote dem and pretend they’ve washed their hands of the issue? No. The best time to be involved was in 2014, or maybe 1914. The next best time to be involved was in 2016, 2018, 2020, etc. Vote for least harm in the election, but then help find and elect better candidates. We are seeing this working. Look to New York City. Do the SocDems own the party yet? No, but they are gaining traction. Erasing that gain via demoralization is harmful.
You pivoted away from the genocide issue, though, and into the broader issue of US politics being messed up. I suggested there was no other path forward other than one involving revolt and violence. You stated “get [out] if you can - or get armed and organized”. Neither of those really work:
*I live in a purple state. I fully understand the people that move away to a blue state, but all that does is concentrate the votes in a way that advantages the red voters. This is just how our system works**. Expand this to a world stage to consider people leaving the US.I don’t judge those people, but staying put is a sacrifice I’m willing to make myself if it prevents the violence others advocate; the violence that will occur if the US manages to become entrapped by the current republican party. They have clearly stated that democrats are less than human, so once there’s no check on their power they will try to kill us and we’ll have to fight back.
**If anything, democratic voters need to move into red states and make everyone purple. I did the math a while ago, and I’m not doing it again, but the margin in some house district in like Montana was <1000. 1000 Californians moving would flip a house seat forever, and likely make life in that city more vibrant. Scale that up to states and eventually, we’d get discourse back to a point where things weren’t so polarized. I know this is a dream, though.
I’m open to other ways to fix things. I just don’t see them. We either do it via legal channels like elections or shoot all the fascists, and I’m not there yet and afraid of what will happen if we get there.
What is your suggestion? Where’s the middle ground where you don’t advocate for violence?
(You can quote me and refute or respond to my claims. Before you do that, though, propose your solution.)
Well Republicans may be actively killing Americans, cutting all research funding and solar and infrastructure, ruining trade relations, starting and continuing several wars, doing exactly as much as the dems do on Israel, just with even more support towards it, making bills to say trans people are mentally ill, pushing religion in schools, cutting education, and about 1000 other literally evil things.
BUT! dems support Israel instead of Russia. Who cares about the Iran war I guess. They also only passed 7 huge bills while having a tiny majority. Both sides.
I’ll just go ahead and admit it. Let’s lay it all out. Straight up: I won’t be voting for Biden this election and I hope no else does either.
But yeah I really wish he wasn’t running for president again…in a midterm election. Cause if he wasn’t then I’d say we could at least vent honestly a little about the heinous things he was involved in with out being brow beat about it. Bad mouthing the party in general? Yeah probably not the best thing to be doing now. But Biden? Nah fuck him.
You do realize who the puppet-president is doesn’t matter right? You’re voting for a party and for your pathetic country it means : shit vs shittier.
So grow up and vote for shit before shittier takes away voting altogether. Then worry about dragging the needle further left. US people are so dumb…
“yeah, don’t worry about the future effects - there’s always only one election!”
Remember when people were talking about how they were going to push Biden left after he was elected in 2020? Good times!