That’s an analysis based on vibes and what “sounds like it should be the case”. But the claim that the rise in fascist parties is not primarily and overwhelmingly so due to endogenous fascist, xenophobic and Islamophobic tendencies in European countries themselves but somehow the result of external propping up by some kind of Israeli conspiracy psyop does not stand to the simple Occam’s Razor test. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So give such evidence, buddy.
A much simpler explanation is that European and Israeli fascists have common cause. It really is that simple. Adding the extra variable that Israel somehow created European fascism assigns too much power to it and removes agency from Europeans, without explaining anything new that we already knew about the fascist phenomenon in Europe. And to be sure Israel never needed to create European fascist movements like some cartoonish anti-Semitic trope pulling strings in the background, Europeans happily created them on theie own.
We don’t need conspiratorial antisemitic tropes to condemn the genocidal Israeli apartheid regime. The evidence already in front of our eyes is enough… No reason to dumb down our analysis with some half baked rehashing of the protocols of the elders of Zion.
That’s an analysis based on vibes and what "sounds like it should be the case
Nope. That’s based on what the ACTUAL conspirators are admitting to conspiring to do.
the claim that the rise in fascist parties is not primarily and overwhelmingly so due to endogenous fascist, xenophobic and Islamophobic tendencies in European countries themselves
It’s not realistically possible to accurately quantify the proportions like that (unless “based on vibes”), but regardless, you seem extremely adamant about dismissing contextually crucial perversions of self rule by foreign enemies in order to prevent that the domestic ones are the sole significant culprits and could just as easily go it alone.
That’s not only misguided, it’s also actively harmful to any efforts to know the problem so that we have a better chance of dealing with it.
somehow the result of external propping up by some kind of Israeli conspiracy psyop
Now you’re just trying to build a strawman out of accurate observations 🙄
does not stand to the simple Occam’s Razor test
Sure. If you ignore where all the funding, organizing, and strategies for cooperation (between otherwise nationalist fascists from different countries, no less), that would be a reasonable application of the Razor.
Given ample evidence to the contrary, though, it would need complicated reasoning to refute and as such fails the test of the good Mr William of Ockham, Billy to his friends.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So give such evidence, buddy.
So… You don’t consider world leaders publicly bragging about funding and organizing a fascist takeover attempt of several countries’ governments “extraordinary”?
If so, there’s probably little if anything else that would persuade you.
antisemitic tropes
Anti-zionism ≠ antisemitism. Don’t be like the spokespeople of a fascist apartheid regime.
I’m not saying “the Jews are doing it” based on bigotry. I’m saying “the fascist apartheid regime is doing a lot of it” based on an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.
The evidence already in front of our eyes is enough
Clearly not, in your case.
No reason to dumb down our analysis with some half baked rehashing of the protocols of the elders of Zion.
Agreed. Which is why I wasn’t doing anything even remotely resembling that.
The Israeli douche is not describing a “conspiracy”, he’s describing public politics and public diplomacy. There is literally no conspiracy: it’s politicking. It’s coalition building, out in the open. Fascists are organising across borders. So why use the language of conspiracy? What’s with the cloak and dagger shit? The language of “admitting to conspiring”, what is it doing? It’s mystifying it, it’s adding an aura of “ooooh powerful people control shit behind the scenes”. What’s the point of that?
Of course antisemism and antizionism are not the same. That doesn’t mean that there don’t exist antisemitic ways of doing antizionist politics. Using the old tired tropes of conspiracy and behind the scenes control when it’s clearly public politics out in the open for all to see is an example of this.
And then let’s be super clear: what are you actually saying the Israeli apartheid regime did? If you’re attributing to them the coalition building among fascist parties, and then saying that the European fascists are better coordinated and more politically effective because of that coalition building, then yes that is a defensible thing to say (and you also don’t need “conspiracy” language to describe it).
But if you’re claiming that Israel somehow introduced fascism to parts of Europe where fascist politics would not have otherwise taken root, then that’s an extraordinary claim. If you’re claiming that Israel is “behind” the rise of fascist parties in Europe, that’s an extraordinary claim.
Note also the title of the thread: “Israel created and owns far right parties”. That’s blatantly conspiratorial language, that uses clearly antisemitic tropes. Again: it is possible to do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-Semitic way. Let’s not fucking do that. Let’s instead do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way.
And please don’t try to play the reverse uno card about quantification of the reasons behind fascism. Yes, we know where European fascism comes from and how these parties grew over the last 15 years. There is ample literature, and Israel is never described as the animating force of European fascism.
That’s an analysis based on vibes and what “sounds like it should be the case”. But the claim that the rise in fascist parties is not primarily and overwhelmingly so due to endogenous fascist, xenophobic and Islamophobic tendencies in European countries themselves but somehow the result of external propping up by some kind of Israeli conspiracy psyop does not stand to the simple Occam’s Razor test. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So give such evidence, buddy.
A much simpler explanation is that European and Israeli fascists have common cause. It really is that simple. Adding the extra variable that Israel somehow created European fascism assigns too much power to it and removes agency from Europeans, without explaining anything new that we already knew about the fascist phenomenon in Europe. And to be sure Israel never needed to create European fascist movements like some cartoonish anti-Semitic trope pulling strings in the background, Europeans happily created them on theie own.
We don’t need conspiratorial antisemitic tropes to condemn the genocidal Israeli apartheid regime. The evidence already in front of our eyes is enough… No reason to dumb down our analysis with some half baked rehashing of the protocols of the elders of Zion.
Nope. That’s based on what the ACTUAL conspirators are admitting to conspiring to do.
It’s not realistically possible to accurately quantify the proportions like that (unless “based on vibes”), but regardless, you seem extremely adamant about dismissing contextually crucial perversions of self rule by foreign enemies in order to prevent that the domestic ones are the sole significant culprits and could just as easily go it alone.
That’s not only misguided, it’s also actively harmful to any efforts to know the problem so that we have a better chance of dealing with it.
Now you’re just trying to build a strawman out of accurate observations 🙄
Sure. If you ignore where all the funding, organizing, and strategies for cooperation (between otherwise nationalist fascists from different countries, no less), that would be a reasonable application of the Razor.
Given ample evidence to the contrary, though, it would need complicated reasoning to refute and as such fails the test of the good Mr William of Ockham, Billy to his friends.
So… You don’t consider world leaders publicly bragging about funding and organizing a fascist takeover attempt of several countries’ governments “extraordinary”?
If so, there’s probably little if anything else that would persuade you.
Anti-zionism ≠ antisemitism. Don’t be like the spokespeople of a fascist apartheid regime.
I’m not saying “the Jews are doing it” based on bigotry. I’m saying “the fascist apartheid regime is doing a lot of it” based on an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.
Clearly not, in your case.
Agreed. Which is why I wasn’t doing anything even remotely resembling that.
The Israeli douche is not describing a “conspiracy”, he’s describing public politics and public diplomacy. There is literally no conspiracy: it’s politicking. It’s coalition building, out in the open. Fascists are organising across borders. So why use the language of conspiracy? What’s with the cloak and dagger shit? The language of “admitting to conspiring”, what is it doing? It’s mystifying it, it’s adding an aura of “ooooh powerful people control shit behind the scenes”. What’s the point of that?
Of course antisemism and antizionism are not the same. That doesn’t mean that there don’t exist antisemitic ways of doing antizionist politics. Using the old tired tropes of conspiracy and behind the scenes control when it’s clearly public politics out in the open for all to see is an example of this.
And then let’s be super clear: what are you actually saying the Israeli apartheid regime did? If you’re attributing to them the coalition building among fascist parties, and then saying that the European fascists are better coordinated and more politically effective because of that coalition building, then yes that is a defensible thing to say (and you also don’t need “conspiracy” language to describe it).
But if you’re claiming that Israel somehow introduced fascism to parts of Europe where fascist politics would not have otherwise taken root, then that’s an extraordinary claim. If you’re claiming that Israel is “behind” the rise of fascist parties in Europe, that’s an extraordinary claim.
Note also the title of the thread: “Israel created and owns far right parties”. That’s blatantly conspiratorial language, that uses clearly antisemitic tropes. Again: it is possible to do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-Semitic way. Let’s not fucking do that. Let’s instead do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way.
And please don’t try to play the reverse uno card about quantification of the reasons behind fascism. Yes, we know where European fascism comes from and how these parties grew over the last 15 years. There is ample literature, and Israel is never described as the animating force of European fascism.