That’s an analysis based on vibes and what "sounds like it should be the case
Nope. That’s based on what the ACTUAL conspirators are admitting to conspiring to do.
the claim that the rise in fascist parties is not primarily and overwhelmingly so due to endogenous fascist, xenophobic and Islamophobic tendencies in European countries themselves
It’s not realistically possible to accurately quantify the proportions like that (unless “based on vibes”), but regardless, you seem extremely adamant about dismissing contextually crucial perversions of self rule by foreign enemies in order to prevent that the domestic ones are the sole significant culprits and could just as easily go it alone.
That’s not only misguided, it’s also actively harmful to any efforts to know the problem so that we have a better chance of dealing with it.
somehow the result of external propping up by some kind of Israeli conspiracy psyop
Now you’re just trying to build a strawman out of accurate observations 🙄
does not stand to the simple Occam’s Razor test
Sure. If you ignore where all the funding, organizing, and strategies for cooperation (between otherwise nationalist fascists from different countries, no less), that would be a reasonable application of the Razor.
Given ample evidence to the contrary, though, it would need complicated reasoning to refute and as such fails the test of the good Mr William of Ockham, Billy to his friends.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So give such evidence, buddy.
So… You don’t consider world leaders publicly bragging about funding and organizing a fascist takeover attempt of several countries’ governments “extraordinary”?
If so, there’s probably little if anything else that would persuade you.
antisemitic tropes
Anti-zionism ≠ antisemitism. Don’t be like the spokespeople of a fascist apartheid regime.
I’m not saying “the Jews are doing it” based on bigotry. I’m saying “the fascist apartheid regime is doing a lot of it” based on an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.
The evidence already in front of our eyes is enough
Clearly not, in your case.
No reason to dumb down our analysis with some half baked rehashing of the protocols of the elders of Zion.
Agreed. Which is why I wasn’t doing anything even remotely resembling that.
Starting to wonder if the elders of Zion crap is a talking point made up by Zionists to make the idea of being anti-Zionist seem equivalent to antisemitic conspiracy theories. Zionists are more than happy promoting antisemitic narratives to promote their goals so it wouldn’t surprise me.
I was about to dismiss the notion based on the Protocols hoax predating zionism, but having looked it up, the hoax is from 1903 and the origins of zionism are in the late 1800s. Hmm 🤔
Speculation aside, though, there’s no doubt that Hasbarists LOVE taking even the slightest similarity to actual antisemitic tropes in anti-zionist messaging and conflating the hell out of that shit to further their gaslighting.
Of course, it doesn’t help that a lot of the most disgusting antisemitic tropes are about nefarious rich Jews conspiring to exert undue influence and a lot of the activities of the likes of AIPAC and ADL are doing almost 1:1 real life versions of those things.
Helps to remember that there’s a lot more Christian zionists than Jewish ones in total and in the US in particular, though.
It feels really convenient for them. Maybe that’s a conspiracy theory in and of itself.
I would argue that even for antisemitic conspiracy theories that form organically, that they would work to keep them alive so they can point to them to deflect criticism of Zionism and claim it’s all antisemitism.
I don’t know what you think you’re going to achieve here, but dismissing anti-Zionism as antisemitic conspiriacies isn’t going to get you anything good here, and we will not hesitate to ban people who parrot pro-Zionist rhetoric. Accusations of antisemitism here aren’t going to shut people down, they will just get you banned.
Israel provides funding and support to many leaders, these leaders have openly admitted this. Denying that only serves to benefit them. It is a form of Zionist apologia.
Nope. That’s based on what the ACTUAL conspirators are admitting to conspiring to do.
It’s not realistically possible to accurately quantify the proportions like that (unless “based on vibes”), but regardless, you seem extremely adamant about dismissing contextually crucial perversions of self rule by foreign enemies in order to prevent that the domestic ones are the sole significant culprits and could just as easily go it alone.
That’s not only misguided, it’s also actively harmful to any efforts to know the problem so that we have a better chance of dealing with it.
Now you’re just trying to build a strawman out of accurate observations 🙄
Sure. If you ignore where all the funding, organizing, and strategies for cooperation (between otherwise nationalist fascists from different countries, no less), that would be a reasonable application of the Razor.
Given ample evidence to the contrary, though, it would need complicated reasoning to refute and as such fails the test of the good Mr William of Ockham, Billy to his friends.
So… You don’t consider world leaders publicly bragging about funding and organizing a fascist takeover attempt of several countries’ governments “extraordinary”?
If so, there’s probably little if anything else that would persuade you.
Anti-zionism ≠ antisemitism. Don’t be like the spokespeople of a fascist apartheid regime.
I’m not saying “the Jews are doing it” based on bigotry. I’m saying “the fascist apartheid regime is doing a lot of it” based on an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.
Clearly not, in your case.
Agreed. Which is why I wasn’t doing anything even remotely resembling that.
Starting to wonder if the elders of Zion crap is a talking point made up by Zionists to make the idea of being anti-Zionist seem equivalent to antisemitic conspiracy theories. Zionists are more than happy promoting antisemitic narratives to promote their goals so it wouldn’t surprise me.
I was about to dismiss the notion based on the Protocols hoax predating zionism, but having looked it up, the hoax is from 1903 and the origins of zionism are in the late 1800s. Hmm 🤔
Speculation aside, though, there’s no doubt that Hasbarists LOVE taking even the slightest similarity to actual antisemitic tropes in anti-zionist messaging and conflating the hell out of that shit to further their gaslighting.
Of course, it doesn’t help that a lot of the most disgusting antisemitic tropes are about nefarious rich Jews conspiring to exert undue influence and a lot of the activities of the likes of AIPAC and ADL are doing almost 1:1 real life versions of those things.
Helps to remember that there’s a lot more Christian zionists than Jewish ones in total and in the US in particular, though.
It feels really convenient for them. Maybe that’s a conspiracy theory in and of itself.
I would argue that even for antisemitic conspiracy theories that form organically, that they would work to keep them alive so they can point to them to deflect criticism of Zionism and claim it’s all antisemitism.
Removed by mod
I don’t know what you think you’re going to achieve here, but dismissing anti-Zionism as antisemitic conspiriacies isn’t going to get you anything good here, and we will not hesitate to ban people who parrot pro-Zionist rhetoric. Accusations of antisemitism here aren’t going to shut people down, they will just get you banned.
Israel provides funding and support to many leaders, these leaders have openly admitted this. Denying that only serves to benefit them. It is a form of Zionist apologia.
Removed by mod
Sayonara you worthless Zionist apologist.