Every single time fascism has taken over, it is because the left was too busy infighting. Only a unified front can stop fascism. That means communists, socialists, anarchists, democratic socialists, liberals, pro- Israel centrists, anti-zionist leftists, everyone. None of your beef with each other matters if democracy disappears.
I hate what Israel is doing as much as anyone, but it is not fascist. Genocidal, theocratic, racist, and all around awful, but not fascist. Fascism has very specific characteristics. It could certainly become fascist if the right consolidates power, eliminates the independent judiciary, eliminates competing political parties, crushes the free press, and bans speech critical of the government, represses women, embraces anti-intellectualism, among other things.
There are still Zionist centrists that want the Constitution preserved and for the US to be a democracy. In that they oppose the fascists the same as the left.
A neoliberal corporate funded dark money group like “thirdway” fighting DSA is “infighting”?
My friend. At a certain point you gotta realize that these groups aren’t “fighting fascist”. They are literally there to exist as offering “the only reasonable defense against fascism” while spending all their time attacking to their left.
The are about as socialist as “national socialism”. Don’t pretend this is infighting. The left in America is United behind DSA. Even the twitter ultras are admitting that DSA is at least building class consciousness within the masses. Hell, the anarchist aren’t even crying that much and still doing good work on the streets as they always do. There is very little infighting. The Democratic establishment and groups like “thirdway” are not our allies. They will let Trump kill us all before they let capitalism lose ground.
If you’re defending these centrist Democrats and their propaganda groups like thirdway; you aren’t infighting with other leftist. You are supporting the fascism and falling for their “being reasonable” messaging. You are not “on the left” in any sense of the word. “Being reasonable” in the face of fascism literally just means allow it to keep its strength. You don’t stop fascism by being reasonable with the fascist.
Fascism and liberalism are the same fucking system. What you think of as the difference is actually the DISTANCE between you and the “frontier”. Inside the core of fascism is liberalism. On the boundary of liberalism is fascism.
What did liberal America do to black people? Fascism. What did liberal America do to indigenous people? Fascism.
What did liberal Europe do to Haiti? Fascism.
What did liberal Europe do to Africa? Fascism.
What did liberal Europe do to Southeast Asia. Fascism?
What did liberal America do to The Phillipines? Fascism.
Liberalism is inherently a conservative ideology. Liberalism doesn’t mean “not hating gay people”. The progressive and leftist movements within a dual capitalist two party system have worked within the Democratic party to achieve incremental improvements. It’s why you think “liberal” means “left leaning”. It does not.
The Republicans and Democrats are both “Liberals” and they are both currently supporting the rise of fascism in their own unique role.
Please go look up what the rest of the entire world means when they say “Liberal”. Then you might be capable of having the vocabulary to understand this conversation.
Conservatism was a specific response to liberalism. Liberalism said power comes from private property. Conservatism said power comes from the sovereign.
lmao what on earth do you think unity among groups whose core positions are diametrically opposed looks like.
Usually in the US this logic is not about building an even slightly coherent coalition where there is something on the table for each group. Instead it is a nagging and attempt to shame people who are developing a political consciousness (not to mention conscience) into simply supporting the capitalist right wing status quo. Everyone with left principals has already correctly stepped away from that game entirely.
Let’s make it simple: what policy position are you giving to the Zionists and anti-Zionists, people whose sole descriptors are antithetical. Remember, the status quo state policies are Zionist, so doing nothing is not neutral.
what policy position are you giving to the Zionists and anti-Zionists, people whose sole descriptors are antithetical
Presumably these people have something else they care about in their life. Like preserving basic human rights and not getting put in a concentration camp.
There are a lot of “zionists” who are brain washed and think that Israel is just defending itself (obviously I realize there is no such thing as defensive genocide). Nonetheless these people do believe in upholding the Constitution and democracy. They will fight the fascists and maybe in the process learn the error of their ways. We are already seeing this as support for Israel among Democrats continues to fall.
Their were a lot of Nazis who were brainwashed and thought Germany was just defending itself. Their are a lot of MAGA who are just brainwashed and think Trump is saving democracy.
They will fight the fascists and maybe in the process learn the error of their ways.
Okay so you can’t even see that Zionists are openly supporting and aiding in genocide. Because that sure as shit is not basic human rights, and the entire population is in a concentration camp at this point.
I’m not willing to give up human rights in the US because another country is committing genocide. Yes, we are giving some of the support that helps Israel to do it, but don’t think for a second that they wouldn’t be doing it even without US support. Two countries without human rights is not better than one country without human rights. Call it selfish all you want but idealism that does not adapt to reality helps no one.
As I said in the other comment, what you think of as a difference between fascism and not fascism is actually the DISTANCE between your position in the core of fascism and the boundary/periphery/frontier of fascism.
Liberals are not leftists, centrists are fucking brain dead, pro Israel centrists even more so. What we have in this country is a gross perversion of democracy sold to us by corporations and paid of politicians.
Anyone who can’t recognize that and work with actual leftists to curb it, are actually the ones handing everything over to fascism. This status quo “most important election of our lifetimes” bullshit just keeps the pendulum swinging.
Once more let me remind you what fascism is. It need not wear a brown shirt or a green shirt – it may even wear a dress shirt. Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege.
— Tommy Douglas
It’s exactly bourgeois, liberal democracy that legitimizes fascism in the first place. Its institutions rooted in private property relations and capitalist enterprise allow poverty to flourish thereby enabling fascists to pick up the pieces and divide us.
The rejection of fascism starts at recognizing capitalism and its internal contradictions as the driving force of fascism.
I doubt the meaning of the word was deliberately and/or consciously changed.
I blame the US two-party system for this, which has a timeline where
the two political parties did not just shift, but switched places.
The US democratic party has gone from being far-right,
to democratic socialist (left-wing), to center-right/right-wing and
currently going back to democratic socialist.
Every single time fascism has taken over, it is because the left was too busy infighting. Only a unified front can stop fascism. That means communists, socialists, anarchists, democratic socialists, liberals, pro- Israel centrists, anti-zionist leftists, everyone. None of your beef with each other matters if democracy disappears.
Then unify behind the left.
Everyone who is not fascist needs to unify.
So unify behind the left. They won’t vote for your genocidal shit anymore.
“In order to stop fascism, leftists need to ally with genocidal fascists, otherwise it’s leftist infighting”
I hate what Israel is doing as much as anyone, but it is not fascist. Genocidal, theocratic, racist, and all around awful, but not fascist. Fascism has very specific characteristics. It could certainly become fascist if the right consolidates power, eliminates the independent judiciary, eliminates competing political parties, crushes the free press, and bans speech critical of the government, represses women, embraces anti-intellectualism, among other things.
Oh ok, if they’re only genocidal, racial supremacist, expansionist apartheid state that’s fine to ally with them. You fucking idiot.
i.e. fascists
I’d rather saw my own head off than work with a Zionazi.
There are still Zionist centrists that want the Constitution preserved and for the US to be a democracy. In that they oppose the fascists the same as the left.
I don’t think you know what any of those words mean.
You lost me at cooporating with Zionists. They’re literally modern day Nazis and the cause of most of our biggest issues.
There can be no unity under capitalism
A neoliberal corporate funded dark money group like “thirdway” fighting DSA is “infighting”?
My friend. At a certain point you gotta realize that these groups aren’t “fighting fascist”. They are literally there to exist as offering “the only reasonable defense against fascism” while spending all their time attacking to their left.
The are about as socialist as “national socialism”. Don’t pretend this is infighting. The left in America is United behind DSA. Even the twitter ultras are admitting that DSA is at least building class consciousness within the masses. Hell, the anarchist aren’t even crying that much and still doing good work on the streets as they always do. There is very little infighting. The Democratic establishment and groups like “thirdway” are not our allies. They will let Trump kill us all before they let capitalism lose ground.
If you’re defending these centrist Democrats and their propaganda groups like thirdway; you aren’t infighting with other leftist. You are supporting the fascism and falling for their “being reasonable” messaging. You are not “on the left” in any sense of the word. “Being reasonable” in the face of fascism literally just means allow it to keep its strength. You don’t stop fascism by being reasonable with the fascist.
You didn’t read a single one of the replies to your post.
Fascism and liberalism are the same fucking system. What you think of as the difference is actually the DISTANCE between you and the “frontier”. Inside the core of fascism is liberalism. On the boundary of liberalism is fascism.
What did liberal America do to black people? Fascism. What did liberal America do to indigenous people? Fascism.
What did liberal Europe do to Haiti? Fascism.
What did liberal Europe do to Africa? Fascism.
What did liberal Europe do to Southeast Asia. Fascism?
What did liberal America do to The Phillipines? Fascism.
Fascism is an inherently conservative ideology. It’s the basic definition, so you are simply wrong.
It’s the mix of total ignorance and complete smug confidence that makes you people so loathsome.
Pot meet kettle
Wow, “No, U!”? Fucking good one
Liberalism is an inherently conservative ideology too.
Liberalism is inherently a conservative ideology. Liberalism doesn’t mean “not hating gay people”. The progressive and leftist movements within a dual capitalist two party system have worked within the Democratic party to achieve incremental improvements. It’s why you think “liberal” means “left leaning”. It does not.
The Republicans and Democrats are both “Liberals” and they are both currently supporting the rise of fascism in their own unique role.
Please go look up what the rest of the entire world means when they say “Liberal”. Then you might be capable of having the vocabulary to understand this conversation.
You don’t understand history then.
Conservatism was a specific response to liberalism. Liberalism said power comes from private property. Conservatism said power comes from the sovereign.
Fascism protects private property
Fascism makes the dictator the sovereign.
Capitalism makes the rich the dictators, fascism just drops the facade
Study history. Both Italy and Germany protected ownership rights and did not establish a return to an individual sovereign nor an aristocracy.
You are operating from vibes, not reality. Fascism as you know it has literally only ever emerged from a liberal democracy
lmao what on earth do you think unity among groups whose core positions are diametrically opposed looks like.
Usually in the US this logic is not about building an even slightly coherent coalition where there is something on the table for each group. Instead it is a nagging and attempt to shame people who are developing a political consciousness (not to mention conscience) into simply supporting the capitalist right wing status quo. Everyone with left principals has already correctly stepped away from that game entirely.
Let’s make it simple: what policy position are you giving to the Zionists and anti-Zionists, people whose sole descriptors are antithetical. Remember, the status quo state policies are Zionist, so doing nothing is not neutral.
Presumably these people have something else they care about in their life. Like preserving basic human rights and not getting put in a concentration camp.
Zionists very explicit don’t care about preserving basic human rights.
There are a lot of “zionists” who are brain washed and think that Israel is just defending itself (obviously I realize there is no such thing as defensive genocide). Nonetheless these people do believe in upholding the Constitution and democracy. They will fight the fascists and maybe in the process learn the error of their ways. We are already seeing this as support for Israel among Democrats continues to fall.
Their were a lot of Nazis who were brainwashed and thought Germany was just defending itself. Their are a lot of MAGA who are just brainwashed and think Trump is saving democracy.
They’re currently fighting for fascists
are you high?
I guess I’m the first person to tell you what Zionism is? Because their whole thing is ethnic cleansing and concentration camps.
Okay so you can’t even see that Zionists are openly supporting and aiding in genocide. Because that sure as shit is not basic human rights, and the entire population is in a concentration camp at this point.
Purely terms of whether or not the United States falls to fascism, what happens in Israel is irrelevant.
So much for your “respect for basic human rights”
Pure selfishness disguised as a political position.
I’m not willing to give up human rights in the US because another country is committing genocide. Yes, we are giving some of the support that helps Israel to do it, but don’t think for a second that they wouldn’t be doing it even without US support. Two countries without human rights is not better than one country without human rights. Call it selfish all you want but idealism that does not adapt to reality helps no one.
Like I said, pure selfishness disguised a political ideology: you would have supported the holocaust so long as you benifited
As I said in the other comment, what you think of as a difference between fascism and not fascism is actually the DISTANCE between your position in the core of fascism and the boundary/periphery/frontier of fascism.
No, actually, Israel’s fate is directly tied to the US’s fate, and the US’s to Israel, because Israel is the 51st state.
Why do you think all the fascists love Israel and crack down on anyone who opposed its genocide?
It’s all one empire.
You are not on our side. You’re a scratched liberal who has already sided with the fascists.
If you don’t view genocide outside your borders as relevant you don’t deserve the dignity of human rights within your own.
The US doesn’t get to force fascism and imperialism on the rest of the world only for its citizens to live in peace.
Whatever happens, happens.
Liberals are not leftists, centrists are fucking brain dead, pro Israel centrists even more so. What we have in this country is a gross perversion of democracy sold to us by corporations and paid of politicians.
Anyone who can’t recognize that and work with actual leftists to curb it, are actually the ones handing everything over to fascism. This status quo “most important election of our lifetimes” bullshit just keeps the pendulum swinging.
Every single time fascism has taken over, it is because liberals sided with fascists against socialists.
Once more let me remind you what fascism is. It need not wear a brown shirt or a green shirt – it may even wear a dress shirt. Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege.
— Tommy Douglas
It’s exactly bourgeois, liberal democracy that legitimizes fascism in the first place. Its institutions rooted in private property relations and capitalist enterprise allow poverty to flourish thereby enabling fascists to pick up the pieces and divide us.
The rejection of fascism starts at recognizing capitalism and its internal contradictions as the driving force of fascism.
to fight fascism, we must unite with fascists
We must join with him, Gandalf. It would be wise, my friend.
But muh “divide & conquer…!”
Liberals are not left.
They pervert the word.
I doubt the meaning of the word was deliberately and/or consciously changed.
I blame the US two-party system for this, which has a timeline where
the two political parties did not just shift, but switched places.
The US democratic party has gone from being far-right,
to democratic socialist (left-wing), to center-right/right-wing and
currently going back to democratic socialist.
It was deliberately perverted. The bourgeoisie own the government, the media, and the NGOs; and they know what they’re doing.
democrats are not the left.