Person A: You don’t love me anymore?
Person B: It is complicated.
Person A: really!?
At least he didn’t support this guy:
One side is far more powerful and commiting genocide, the other is poor and simply trying to survive. Currently it is not complex at all.
My initial position after those first attacks from Hamas were Isreal has the right to defend itself, but what has happened since then is so far beyond the scope of what is acceptable, it is horrible.
but what has happened since then is so far beyond the scope of what is acceptable
It just shows how deeply embedded HAMAS was in the Gaza strip. That should shock your mind equally as much as the destruction the IDF is wreaking on the place. You have to look at both sides, and also consider these matters through the lens of long history, since approximately 1948. How many hospitals or other infrastructure could have been built with the money and concrete and manpower used to build those tunnels? Things that could have improved the lives of ordinary Gazans. Resources withheld from the citizens by their ruling politicians.
In the mid 1940’s a lot of German civilians died in allied bombing raids. Even Germans who weren’t Nazis and may not have even voted for Hitler. But there was a collective punishment (justly) visited upon all of the Germans in the 1940’s for bad political decisions they collectively made in the 1930’s. One of the major bad decisions was voting Hitler in. Right or wrong, that is just how international politics works sometimes. The situation in Gaza is not dissimilar. Gazans are paying now for many many mistakes made in the political domain, for decades stretching back 80+ years. Bad political decisions. These are impersonal forces at work. Holding up portraits of individual victims is meaningless at this scale.
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Even Germans who weren’t Nazis and may not have even voted for Hitler.
All the other dogshit that others are well enough covering aside, just a nitpick: Hitler ran for president and lost in 1932. Hindenburg won. Hindenburg then appointed Hitler as Chancellor, signed over most powers to him, dissolved the Reichstag a couple times, and died.
This is wrong on many levels. Comparing a nation that went to war and the unfortunate reality of civilians getting caught in the crosshairs to civilians being massacred over a terrorist act is nonsensical.
You’re just straight up being a fascist. Like you deadass are justifying genocide. There already were tons of hospitals and infrastructure! Israel levelled all of them! And that’s despite the fact that Israel regularly restricted access to electricity and food BEFORE October 7. Also most of Gaza’s population wasn’t even old enough to vote when Hamas was elected. Also If you think collective punishment is acceptable for electing someone deemed bad enough then I guess you’d be fine if Israelis and Americans were being mass murdered?
How many times can Israeli soldiers murder Palestinian children for the crime of “rock-throwing” before you decide enough is enough?
Just pick a number. Any number.
How about we condemn both Hamas AND IDF for their crimes?
I know it’s a very novel approach but I think there might be a method in that madness.
OK so we can put you down for “It’s ok for soldiers to murder rock-throwing children”
Anyone else want to participate?
Some of us do. The problem is that only Israel has the capacity to and is committing genocide.
ah yes, Hamas is embedded so thoroughly we have to shoot people waiting for food aid after we carpet bombed their house And dont get me started on journalists, the Associated Press should be designated an international sponsor of terrorism.
If you must try to hold on to this idea that Israel is acting in good faith when they
mow the lawn❌thin the population❌erase gaza❌ defend themselves ✅ fromhuman animals❌amalek❌ Hamas ✅ by bombing hospitals and schools you could at least admit that IDF fucks up a lot. Like a suspicious amount.We’ll see what is remembered 50 years from now…
“We’ll see what is remembered 50 years from now” is a remarkable thing to say while defending collective punishment, considering we already have a thorough and tragic historical record.
The last century gave us genocide, mass civilian killing, collective punishment, and entire populations being blamed for the actions of governments and armed groups.
The humanitarian laws written in response explicitly rejected the exact moral logic you are invoking here.
You are not offering some hardheaded lesson from history. You are resurrecting an argument the last century already taught us to reject.
Instead of predicting how history will remember this, maybe you should read some.
Oh please. Acting like Israel hasn’t been killing Palestinians for decades. Imagine how Palestine could look now if Israel hadn’t been subjugating and oppressing them for the last 60+ years.
Both sides have been killing each other for decades. Palestinians killing Israelis, Israelis killing Palestinians. Neither side has clean hands in any of this.
Yes, Israeli soldiers murder children, and then get attacked, and then go murder more children.
Never do the pussies bother to fight anyone in a uniform or anyone armed.
It’s always, “Oops, I had to blow up a children’s hospital again.” Fucking despicable.
Yea in a ratio of about 10 Palestinians per 1 Israeli. Neither side has clean hands. But one side sure is hell bent on completely genociding the other. This both sides shit you’re spewing is disgusting. Recognize that a genocide is taking place and is killing tens of thousands of innocents.
In your opinion it would’ve been OK for Israel to retaliate if the ratio was closer to 1:1?
Neither side has clean hands
100% true.
But one side sure is hell bent on completely genociding the other
You mean the side that had the “obliteration” of the other side mentioned multiple times in its charter?
Recognize that a genocide is taking place and is killing tens of thousands of innocents.
Agreed. The UN should’ve stepped in a long time ago and provided much needed security.
Israel won’t let the UN step in. UN buildings, programs, and investigators were some of the first targeted, and the US has veto power within the UN. One side has the capacity and is committing genocide, and when you bother to look at what they are saying in Israeli social networks, they are not shy about it. Israel also killed the alternatives for Hamas, bolstering it over the PA to prevent the possibility of a legitimate Palestinian state from rising.
Islamic fundamentalists are also not shy about it. You should listen to what they say, too.
Palestine is a tiny part of a very large middle east majority called Islam, they don’t concern themselves with such things as “states” and “borders”. According to them.
We agree, only the UN could enforce a “two-state solution”.
Left to their own devices, Palestinian or Israeli, (HAMAS vs. Zionist, Islam vs. Jew), genocide is their end goal per their own words. Not everybody. But the fundamentalists don’t respect the opinion of “anybody” or the rule of law, and they don’t negotiate in good faith, ever.
They both want dominion from the river to the sea. Neither will submit to the rule of the other. It’s time for us to give up that fantasy.
A lot of international troops would be required to “keep the peace”, and even then, murders will continue, just at a slower pace.
If the UN (not the USA) won’t keep the peace, we need to get Palestinian civilians out of there. This is an international war, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iran, the Islamic Republic, HAMAS, Hezbollah, et al. aren’t going to negotiate peace, there are no terms the other would accept.
You will be “disciplined” for this point of view on Lemmy. Many here don’t even realize that all fundamentalist parties involved are dedicated to the total obliteration of the other. They don’t understand that this is international, not Israeli vs. Palestinian, but more Jews vs. Islam (which is in itself a gross simplification).
Others want all of these millions of Israelis to “disappear”, as if they have somewhere to go. Others want… more.
Yep. Gaza is not a complex issue. It is overwhelmingly simple. Genocide is a black-and-white issue with zero wiggle room. It is unquestionably evil. Israel has been committing genocide for decades.
The intention of the Zionist movement was to displace Arabs in Palestine since the very beginning. (Ze’ev Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall, 1923.)
My first thought when he said that.
Kids dying isn’t complex bro. Like isn’t he fuckin Irish?
Kids dying is the end product of an extremely complex political situation. What’s difficult for you to understand here?
The most complex political issue on the planet remains how to handle climate change.
IMHO that’s not really so complicated, we just do the same things we did for lead and CFCs.
Its patently ridiculous how hard people twist themselves into knots to try to avoid saying anything remotely negative about Israels fucking genocide.
Much like the Irish- people love U2, but don’t really give a fuck about Irish independence or the IRA. Just shut up and keep pumping out great albums, and movies like “The Commitments”. Give the public dark Guiness in stout glasses and good Belfast (or better yet Dublin!) brogue but keep your weird incomprehensible meh, couldn’t care less mess of Irish history & politics. Smartest thing the Irish ever did was make what peace they could back in the 90’s. Pali’s would be smart to do the same. Nobody really cares about them. Their Arab neighbor’s feelings range from indifference to outright hostility (google “black september 1970”) The issue as well as the people themselves have become a black spot on the region’s prospects for peace and prosperity and have been since 1948- particularly for Arabs. Somebody needs to sit them down and have a little talk about the actual political realities and facts on the ground. Even if they were given their own state tomorrow, the Palestinian territories are a non-viable state. No industry, no economy. They will only survive as a beggar nation utterly dependent on international aid. A giant Arab indian reservation in the middle east. It’s a sad situation but it’s been 80+ years in the making. Bombed buildings can be rebuilt. Pics of dead babies are mere propaganda at this point, any deaths mere statistics. All of it meaningless. Only when a peace agreement is reached will any of it have any meaning inside the context of history. Until Pali’s are ready to take that step, things will continue on as they have. Never losing, but also not winning either. Just more and more meaningless deaths, forgotten and to no real purpose.
Nah Ed you’re just thick
Hey Ed, I heard Kid Rock has some free time in his schedule, maybe he’d open for you.
By conceding that the reaction to October 7 was “disproportionate”, he seemed genuinely upset. Only he didn’t say how many dead kids he would consider proportionate.
I viscerally hated that word when he said it but didn’t know why until I read this article
You see, mass murder for imperialistic interests is a very nuanced issue and requires multiple viewpoints. There’s definitely pros and cons to it, depending on which team you’re on.
STFU and go back to making boring, gutless adult contempary music for soccer moms.
The appropriate response to Israel’s current actions is and should be simple.
The decisions as to where the Israelis should live once extreme appropriations have been rendered to Palestinians however, is not very simple.
There are still 6 million Israelis and while it would be satisfying to do to them what they have been doing to Gaza, I don’t believe in my heart that doing so would be the best we are capable of or be seen as the correct response by future generations. Some of those 6 million people (not a lot, maybe like 30% from what I understand) are actually good people who were just born onto stolen land under an authoritarian government, and they genuinely have nowhere else to go at this current moment.
I think a two state solution with neither one getting the most desired places and those places instead being rendered to a U.N./International body to oversee equal, fair, and open use is be the best interim answer my uneducated ass can currently imagine.
If someone has a better answer not rooted in frustration and revenge, please lift me up. Tell it.
Here’s a better answer: one state, all living in the country have equal rights. Palestinians are given reparations and right to return to their stolen lands. Israelis that directly participated in or orchestrated the genocide must face trial for crimes against humanity just like the Nazis did.
I’m all for if you can’t share, then no one can have it. I’m all for a no state solution.
Sounds pretty simple to me
WHO THE FUCK LISTENS TO ED SHEERAN?!?!
I only know about him because of this mess.
Ed is taking a lot of hits lately. He may not be saying the right things but if you deal with any bank or insurance company, your money is probably being invested in companies (S&P500 companies) involved in the middle east directly or indirectly, intentionally or not. Taking action also means watching how your money and savings are being used.
