When all’s said and done, I’d rather have proof that ICE ignored 1000 orders than only ignored 10 and nobody challenged the other 990. It’s not one or the other, we can still use the court systems to create a trail of accountability while we also work to dismantle the systems being put in place to ignore the courts. As flawed and incomplete as the Nuremberg trials were, they only made it as far as they did because so much was documented by people who thought they’d never be held accountable for their actions. Every ignored court order is the chance to punish someone when they are no longer in power.
And besides, even if they only obey one out of every ten, that’s still worth the effort when the alternative is just not trying because people don’t think it’ll work.
That’s totally sensible, my issue is just with framing this as “10 people released”. If it actually is, great, fantastic. But if it’s not, it’s creating a false sense of progress that causes people to underestimate the problem and feel like it’s resolved when it’s really, really not.
But if it’s not, it’s creating a false sense of progress that causes people to underestimate the problem and feel like it’s resolved when it’s really, really not
No, its trying to tell you that you could make a difference if you tried instead of just assuming its going to fail and doing nothing. Like, in the actual words in the meme.
I feel like maybe they just have a sort of agnostic approach to these 10 people’s actual freedom, which I understand having been on the wrong side of a booking cell door, even local PD will drag their feet all night and release you at 2am for a laugh. And you’re trying to say that regardless of whether or not they are outside of a jail, this person has made an effort that they thought would be difficult and found to be otherwise, and is trying to share his apparent success in an attempt to encourage others to act as well. And I agree that the message is perhaps more important than the reality right now, but I also understand jaded “nothing ever happens” mentality online.
Do you have evidence for either that these 10 orders were ignored or that there was some false sense of progress that coddled anyone to not do anything because of these 10 orders?
Resistance is not a monolith, it is not all or nothing. It is these shitty 10 orders AND all the other work that people are doing. There is nothing too small and too petty when it comes to resisting fascism. Every little thing raises the cost for the fascists, raises the friction. Remember that 1944 manual on Simple Sabotage? Raise the friction in every way possible. That’s the point.
So, sure say your reminder that “that’s not enough” but then move on and go do something petty to raise the friction the fascists face.
Exactly, every court order you give is one they have to ignore, it’s one that further delegitimizes the regime. The goal is for the regime to struggle to enact its goals. It desires its people to be high energy, fully committed, and to be seen as essentially legitimate in order to make that happen. If they can’t be respected they want to be feared. Hero or villain they’re still a major character who gets their way. Deny them that.
You can tell what works by who they attempt to quickly and quietly stop. Lawyers can file lawsuits. Everyone can protest. People can organize their workplace and neighborhood. But also you can just drive 5 under whenever ice is active in an area. You can get their order wrong at a restaurant. Get in the habit of looking for plausibly deniable ways to deny them what they want.
I agree with this. I just don’t want to forget that the people these petitions were filed for are probably still locked up and there’s no guarantee they’re going to get anything resembling justice yet.
It’s in the name, right? Resistance doesn’t win. Even if they are not ignored, these court orders will not end the reign of ICE terror. And it is important to remember that there are people for which the system will deny even such an ignorable court order. They are no less worthy of solidarity. So yes, this is not winning. But that’s not the point yet.
Resistance doesn’t win but it makes winning possible. It slows down, increases the cost, frustrates, distracts, buys time, exposes systemic weaknesses, trains the capacity of allies, and makes people lose fear. It’s not sufficient, but it’s necessary.
This comment is also speculation is it not? We have evidence that the court ordered people to be released. We don’t have evidence that the order was ignored. Even in the cases where ICE/DHS have taken time to release people they drag their feet, maybe submit an appeal, but they have not outright ignored the order.
Huge asterisk of course because they did ignore orders when sending people out of country. But in terms of holding them domestically the largest delay I’ve heard was a week I believe where they were trying to get out of the court order through appeals.
Feel free to post evidence though, keeping up with the crimes of this administration is a full time job
Are you seriously arguing that we’re supposed to give ICE and this administration the benefit of the doubt? Why on Earth would you imagine the onus is on me to provide evidence? My comment is OBVIOUSLY speculation, I’m not pretending I’m involved, and that’s why I have zero interest in even attempting to provide or find any specific evidence, I sincerely doubt there is any. I’m saying I don’t trust ICE to follow through. I think that given they are the untrustworthy actor in this whole situation, maybe you should focus your disapproval on them instead of me.
Your (carefully hedged) claim that orders were not ignored and the largest delay is a week is absolutely offensively absurd on its face and makes me extremely dubious that you’re even arguing in good faith, and that’s why this will be my last reply to you, but in parting I will at least offer this small token of evidence to help other readers understand how full of shit you are.
Are you seriously arguing that we’re supposed to give ICE and this administration the benefit of the doubt?
Nope not what I said. I just wanted examples.
Why on Earth would you imagine the onus is on me to provide evidence? My comment is OBVIOUSLY speculation
You summed up why I would want evidence since it is baseless speculation. Let’s get some facts here.
I have zero interest in even attempting to provide or find any specific evidence,
Oh :/
Your (carefully hedged) claim that orders were not ignored and the largest delay is a week is absolutely offensively absurd on its face and makes me extremely dubious that you’re even arguing in good faith, and that’s why this will be my last reply to you, but in parting I will at least offer this small token of evidence to help other readers understand how full of shit you are.
Gotcha, you were not interested in any kinda of a conversation, cool.
Your link is paywalled BTW, and doesn’t give me any info outside the title. So I can’t gauge what or how orders were broken. All I can say is I’m not surprised they did and hope one day all involved are held accountable for their crimes.
Fuck right off with your ICE apologism.
You really should take a deep breath and take a pause to think. I want the facts, I don’t want reactionary speculation. We have enough real documented crimes as is, and you’re probably right there are plenty more that are hidden. I just don’t see the need to speculate on what they might be doing when there is plenty enough about what we know they are doing. There’s enough known evidence to lock up half the administration if not the whole damn thing.
I’m sure more will be exposed one day, but today I don’t see the point of responding to good news with doomeristic speculation
But as you said you won’t be replying. I look forward to not hearing from you
When all’s said and done, I’d rather have proof that ICE ignored 1000 orders than only ignored 10 and nobody challenged the other 990. It’s not one or the other, we can still use the court systems to create a trail of accountability while we also work to dismantle the systems being put in place to ignore the courts. As flawed and incomplete as the Nuremberg trials were, they only made it as far as they did because so much was documented by people who thought they’d never be held accountable for their actions. Every ignored court order is the chance to punish someone when they are no longer in power.
And besides, even if they only obey one out of every ten, that’s still worth the effort when the alternative is just not trying because people don’t think it’ll work.
That’s totally sensible, my issue is just with framing this as “10 people released”. If it actually is, great, fantastic. But if it’s not, it’s creating a false sense of progress that causes people to underestimate the problem and feel like it’s resolved when it’s really, really not.
No, its trying to tell you that you could make a difference if you tried instead of just assuming its going to fail and doing nothing. Like, in the actual words in the meme.
I feel like maybe they just have a sort of agnostic approach to these 10 people’s actual freedom, which I understand having been on the wrong side of a booking cell door, even local PD will drag their feet all night and release you at 2am for a laugh. And you’re trying to say that regardless of whether or not they are outside of a jail, this person has made an effort that they thought would be difficult and found to be otherwise, and is trying to share his apparent success in an attempt to encourage others to act as well. And I agree that the message is perhaps more important than the reality right now, but I also understand jaded “nothing ever happens” mentality online.
I’m stoned and it’s midnight, thanks for reading.
Do you have evidence for either that these 10 orders were ignored or that there was some false sense of progress that coddled anyone to not do anything because of these 10 orders?
Resistance is not a monolith, it is not all or nothing. It is these shitty 10 orders AND all the other work that people are doing. There is nothing too small and too petty when it comes to resisting fascism. Every little thing raises the cost for the fascists, raises the friction. Remember that 1944 manual on Simple Sabotage? Raise the friction in every way possible. That’s the point.
So, sure say your reminder that “that’s not enough” but then move on and go do something petty to raise the friction the fascists face.
Exactly, every court order you give is one they have to ignore, it’s one that further delegitimizes the regime. The goal is for the regime to struggle to enact its goals. It desires its people to be high energy, fully committed, and to be seen as essentially legitimate in order to make that happen. If they can’t be respected they want to be feared. Hero or villain they’re still a major character who gets their way. Deny them that.
You can tell what works by who they attempt to quickly and quietly stop. Lawyers can file lawsuits. Everyone can protest. People can organize their workplace and neighborhood. But also you can just drive 5 under whenever ice is active in an area. You can get their order wrong at a restaurant. Get in the habit of looking for plausibly deniable ways to deny them what they want.
I agree with this. I just don’t want to forget that the people these petitions were filed for are probably still locked up and there’s no guarantee they’re going to get anything resembling justice yet.
It’s in the name, right? Resistance doesn’t win. Even if they are not ignored, these court orders will not end the reign of ICE terror. And it is important to remember that there are people for which the system will deny even such an ignorable court order. They are no less worthy of solidarity. So yes, this is not winning. But that’s not the point yet.
Resistance doesn’t win but it makes winning possible. It slows down, increases the cost, frustrates, distracts, buys time, exposes systemic weaknesses, trains the capacity of allies, and makes people lose fear. It’s not sufficient, but it’s necessary.
This is you here criticizing marathon runners for only rounding the first corner…
This comment is also speculation is it not? We have evidence that the court ordered people to be released. We don’t have evidence that the order was ignored. Even in the cases where ICE/DHS have taken time to release people they drag their feet, maybe submit an appeal, but they have not outright ignored the order.
Huge asterisk of course because they did ignore orders when sending people out of country. But in terms of holding them domestically the largest delay I’ve heard was a week I believe where they were trying to get out of the court order through appeals.
Feel free to post evidence though, keeping up with the crimes of this administration is a full time job
Are you seriously arguing that we’re supposed to give ICE and this administration the benefit of the doubt? Why on Earth would you imagine the onus is on me to provide evidence? My comment is OBVIOUSLY speculation, I’m not pretending I’m involved, and that’s why I have zero interest in even attempting to provide or find any specific evidence, I sincerely doubt there is any. I’m saying I don’t trust ICE to follow through. I think that given they are the untrustworthy actor in this whole situation, maybe you should focus your disapproval on them instead of me.
Your (carefully hedged) claim that orders were not ignored and the largest delay is a week is absolutely offensively absurd on its face and makes me extremely dubious that you’re even arguing in good faith, and that’s why this will be my last reply to you, but in parting I will at least offer this small token of evidence to help other readers understand how full of shit you are.
The chief federal judge in Minnesota compiled a list of almost 100 different orders that had been violated in January alone. In one month. And he also correctly makes the point that it’s substantially understated. Fuck right off with your ICE apologism.
Nope not what I said. I just wanted examples.
You summed up why I would want evidence since it is baseless speculation. Let’s get some facts here.
Oh :/
Gotcha, you were not interested in any kinda of a conversation, cool.
Your link is paywalled BTW, and doesn’t give me any info outside the title. So I can’t gauge what or how orders were broken. All I can say is I’m not surprised they did and hope one day all involved are held accountable for their crimes.
You really should take a deep breath and take a pause to think. I want the facts, I don’t want reactionary speculation. We have enough real documented crimes as is, and you’re probably right there are plenty more that are hidden. I just don’t see the need to speculate on what they might be doing when there is plenty enough about what we know they are doing. There’s enough known evidence to lock up half the administration if not the whole damn thing.
I’m sure more will be exposed one day, but today I don’t see the point of responding to good news with doomeristic speculation
But as you said you won’t be replying. I look forward to not hearing from you