Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., said in an interview with NBC News that he will encourage progressive voters to still back Democrats on the ticket in November even if moderates are victorious in the primaries.
There is a material difference between the Democrats and Republicans that’s worth observing. Dems are merely corrupt politicians: the Republicans are Xtian extremist white-nationalist fascists.
It is vanishingly unlikely that a 3rd party candidate can win in 99% of the elections. Most successful independent politicians became independent after they were first elected, and win as incumbents.
Not voting for the viable candidate running against the fascist GOP, because that candidate is not as $SOMETHING as you want them to be, is simply demonstrating privilege, that you are insulated enough from the effects of the fascist regime that you’re not personally harmed by the fascists winning. Vote like defeating the fascists is the only objective.
So you know AIPAC has long had a stranglehold on DC. You’ve just now observed how voters are breaking that. It’s been going on for a bit, and with continued participation, you can further transform the Democratic Party into the Democratic Socialist party it was decades ago.
Taking over a party works, creating a third party does not. Do the work that can actually succeed.
Yeah, well said. We need to kick out the corpocrat democrats, the corpo democrats and help the progressives and democratic socialists take over the Democratic Party
One’s just a harmless little mosquito and the other is malaria. Why are you putting up mosquito netting when we have a much bigger problem at hand?
It is vanishingly unlikely that a 3rd party candidate can win in 99% of the elections.
It is vanishingly unlikely that a 2nd party candidate can win in north of 80% of elections, even in a wave year. Incumbency is a bitch. I would not use this as an excuse to blindly support the incumbent, without even asking who they are or what they’re running on.
Not voting for the viable candidate running against the fascist GOP, because that candidate is not as $SOMETHING as you want them to be
Helping to entrench a fascist in blue will do nothing to deter the fascists in red. If anything, giving Republicans another Cuellar or Fetterman or Jim Justice will only embolden them.
If you believe your vote matters, you should reserve your vote for people you actually support. If you don’t believe it matters, idk why anyone thinks calling you names and blaming you for their party’s failures will win your vote.
Vote you conscience. Or don’t vote if there’s nobody conscionable to support. It’s your choice.
Don’t let anyone bully you or blame you for the fascist policies of folks five states away.
Unless, of course, you’re an actual fascist. In that case, please kill yourself.
Again, this is just justifying your moral blindness when you can’t distinguish between kind of evil and really evil. It is not morally good or even neutral to stand back and pretend you have no responsibility for the society you’re in as a result of your participation. Take your sanctimony and have a wank over yourself, but all it does is ensure the worst party is helped.
A proper take, if you’re interested in actually improving the moral state of society, is to, say, celebrate the victories of guys like El-Sayed and Mamdani, who are Democrats, and to do your most to have the party succeed, so that next time around, you can vote for more far left Democrats, so that eventually the party looks a lot more like Mamdani than it does Schumer or Clinton. That doesn’t happen when privileged puritans sabotage elections because they’re pouty they haven’t already won yet.
The GOP has been building their full-on fascism machine since Reagan. To beat them, the Dems have to do engage in that same long game, and that’s actually happening now. It’s actually happening, but performative moralists like you act as obstacles to any incremental improvement.
I can weigh the platforms of each party, see that one (GOP) is significantly worse than the other, and have reasonable expectation of shaping the platform of the superior party (Democratic) for the better. Calling that blindness is to make yourself morally irrelevant.
What good comes from abandoning reform of a decadent party so weak it can’t even bind it’s members? The campaign war chest, brand name, and entrenched two-party benefits are there for the taking.
People point to Bernie and complain about his voting or the debacle of his nomination as evidence that the establishment has a stranglehold on the party. The truth is that he’s done more to dismantle their stranglehold than anyone in modern history (yes, more than Trump, the Clintons, Obama or Biden): exposing that the boat can be rocked through the sheer populism of good economic policy.
We’ve now seen that simply running decent candidates in a similar manner (some farther left) doesn’t just threaten but overpowers them. The concerted effort against Mamdani, El-Sayed, Donavan McKinney and others has had middling-to-miserable results.
Simply continuing to vote blue when necessary and engage in primary insurgency drains their resources and weakens their grip. Voting with your conscience (read: no strategy) marks you as an “independent”, essentially a non-voter who can be safely ignored. Why bother listening to you when courting even a single red vote is double the value? You have no impact on their internal policies and can’t threaten them in a primary.
None of this is a compelling argument to vote in the general for a fascist who happens to align with the democratic party.
Again, I go back to Justice, Fetterman, Cuellar, Newsom, Rahm Emmanuel if he tries to run again. There’s no reason to support any of these people at any stage of the election process for any reason.
The fact remains that if you think voting is worthwhile for any reason (which we’re assuming for this conversation & I feel it is) then you need to organize and strategize with like minded individuals. You can freely choose where and when to do that, getting a consensus on who should run and when. But you can’t choose the system you’re running in or organize on the scale of tens of millions of people as a minority party. At the end of the day you still have to play around Duverger’s law and the election laws in your areas.
Let’s examine the real world USA voting process from the perspective of a theoretical group of like minded voters (we’ll call them the LMV) who’s goal is to quickly fill as many seats as possible with qualified, anti-fascist candidates. You can change their imagined tent pole tenets to be as wide or as narrow as you want so long as they want it done broadly and aggressively.
Unless the LMV are authoritarian and anti-democratic, the goal of every step of the voting pipeline should be building mass consensus on the best candidates [Plural! More on this later]. From candidate nomination to campaign platform building to debates to primary elections to general elections.
1.i. Looking for the best candidates in our tent automatically excludes the entire Republican ticket. Any supportable candidates in the pool, right now, are on the Democratic ticket
2.i. Unless you have the party strength to fully fill an entire ticket with great candidates, it forces the general population to choose between your sparse LMV candidate pool and potentially good candidates running on the two party ticket
USA elections are a very tall vertical slice. Your ballot will have city mayors, county clerks, state governers, federal congressmen and (if efforts like the National Popular Vote Compact work) national presidential votes.
Conclusion A: From 1 + 2 + 3 it follows that a small collaboration of people looking to fill all seats with the best viable candidates while they grow without national sway/resources, ipso facto, should not be organizing as a formal 3rd party. Even with local or state success, there is a hard limit on how much success they can have until they hit a critical mass. ∴ the LMV must work within the Democratic party
Widespread political disinterest, apathy and forced disengagement is baked into the system by design. It best serves the interests of the duopoly to keep the general population so uninformed, busy, or distracted that they are effectively (or literally) disenfranchised. They want to select their voters and maintain their power by taking the entire spotlight of election seasons.
4.i. The system means voters don’t have a deep understanding of who is/isn’t on the ballot and who is paying for their campaign. They are unaware of anything but surface-level political jockeying. Beyond that, they don’t have the connections or the time to fact check every attack ad or candidate resume.
The political situation has gotten so dire that both sides of duopoly are clinging to their core by galvanizing their base and running solely against the opposition. Every race is couched in stopping the radical leftists or being not Trump. Neither side has a coherent platform, as evidenced by the MAGA 180° spins on war, tariffs, and national debt; the Democrat’s flip flop voting and weak opposition.
5.i. The mutual suppression leads to an ever smaller but more zealous and loyal voter base. Remember that changing policy, leadership or candidates is a non-option for the people steering both parties. They must focus all resources and narratives on hardening their base or the decay of their party will quickly be terminal. Unfortunately for us, they have the money and connections to do that
Since we’ve now established the LMV is competing as a Democrat bloc, you want your candidates to either lose early or win long. The tiny amount of campaign resources the LMV has means they must pick their battles.
6.i. On average, 1.i tells us that the LMV takeover will eventually run against decent or comparable candidates. The party leadership will sluggishly and daintily endorse compromise candidates to co-opt LMV momentum. That does not matter. The goal is control the elected seats, not control the fading party. Old guard leadership caving to progressive momentum only weakens their position.
To fight LMV insurgency, the unpopular Democrat leadership is put into conflict. They must drive their low turnout just enough to win their general elections but not fuel the populist progressive platform. They say “vote blue no matter who” but they really mean “vote blue if you’re hearing this and are one of demographics we want enfranchised”
Conclusion B: From 4 + 5.i we know that there is a certain portion of the population who will never risk anything but a Democrat vote in the general election, regardless of what the odds are or if they would spoil a good candidate. Add on 6.i + 7 and it becomes obvious that a very large blue turnout will help the insurgent progressive bloc. Even with the political illiteracy of 4.i, any populist platforms will naturally steer the voter to the progressive LMV bloc because the decaying party leaders are fundamentally opposed to them. It may not win every seat every time but the strategy is opportunist and will prevail in the long term.
∴ Aggregated over multiple elections and as a message to the average voting-eligible citizen: “vote blue no matter who” is a strategy that only helps progressives
Q.E.D.
…In case you haven’t seen the parallels, our LMV cohort is using the same strategy that is bringing the DSA success. If you support DSA and DSA-adjacent candidates as you’ve said in other comments, I hope you see their current positioning and how propogating non strategic voting hinders their efforts.
Obviously there are internal DSA conflicts over long term strategy (dirty break vs clean break) and this isn’t an eternal truth but I’ve yet to see any argument that takes an honest look at where the progressive bloc is right now, in 2026, and coherently argues for anything but more Democrat votes.
You say you shouldn’t ever vote for Fetterman but you can look at his platform and voting record and still say he made a better senator than Dr. Oz. In the final ballot we were faced with a pro-Isreal, pro-war fascist and an anti-vax, abortion banning, climate denying, pro-Isreal, pro-war fascist. Regardless of how successful the administration has been at forcing those issues, Fetterman was still the right choice.
The real failure was in lacking a better candidate in Fetterman’s primary, in which he was still the best candidate. If the other two had won, you’d be looking at a pro-Isreal, pro-war, anti-labor fascist
Yeah let’s go back to the blue genocide. Red genocide is fascist!!
So you know AIPAC has long had a stranglehold on DC. You’ve just now observed how voters are breaking that. It’s been going on for a bit, and with continued participation, you can further transform the Democratic Party into the Democratic Socialist party it was decades ago.
Taking over a party works, creating a third party does not. Do the work that can actually succeed.
Death to America.
Username checks out.
I think you’re outa chances after the, you know, millions of dead civilians on your country’s hands since WWII.
Wow you’ve finally convinced me
Yeah, well said. We need to kick out the corpocrat democrats, the corpo democrats and help the progressives and democratic socialists take over the Democratic Party
Glances at the Gaza Genocide
Glances at the Epstein Files
How the Hillary Clinton campaign deliberately “elevated” Donald Trump with its “pied piper” strategy
One’s just a harmless little mosquito and the other is malaria. Why are you putting up mosquito netting when we have a much bigger problem at hand?
It is vanishingly unlikely that a 2nd party candidate can win in north of 80% of elections, even in a wave year. Incumbency is a bitch. I would not use this as an excuse to blindly support the incumbent, without even asking who they are or what they’re running on.
Helping to entrench a fascist in blue will do nothing to deter the fascists in red. If anything, giving Republicans another Cuellar or Fetterman or Jim Justice will only embolden them.
If you believe your vote matters, you should reserve your vote for people you actually support. If you don’t believe it matters, idk why anyone thinks calling you names and blaming you for their party’s failures will win your vote.
Vote you conscience. Or don’t vote if there’s nobody conscionable to support. It’s your choice.
Don’t let anyone bully you or blame you for the fascist policies of folks five states away.
Unless, of course, you’re an actual fascist. In that case, please kill yourself.
Again, this is just justifying your moral blindness when you can’t distinguish between kind of evil and really evil. It is not morally good or even neutral to stand back and pretend you have no responsibility for the society you’re in as a result of your participation. Take your sanctimony and have a wank over yourself, but all it does is ensure the worst party is helped.
A proper take, if you’re interested in actually improving the moral state of society, is to, say, celebrate the victories of guys like El-Sayed and Mamdani, who are Democrats, and to do your most to have the party succeed, so that next time around, you can vote for more far left Democrats, so that eventually the party looks a lot more like Mamdani than it does Schumer or Clinton. That doesn’t happen when privileged puritans sabotage elections because they’re pouty they haven’t already won yet.
The GOP has been building their full-on fascism machine since Reagan. To beat them, the Dems have to do engage in that same long game, and that’s actually happening now. It’s actually happening, but performative moralists like you act as obstacles to any incremental improvement.
If you can’t see past the party label to the individual policy, that’s definitely an example of blindness
I can weigh the platforms of each party, see that one (GOP) is significantly worse than the other, and have reasonable expectation of shaping the platform of the superior party (Democratic) for the better. Calling that blindness is to make yourself morally irrelevant.
What good is weighing the party platform when individual Congressmen aren’t bound to it?
A good leader can whip the votes. Hakeem Jeffries is… not… a good leader.
He’s great at getting whipped
What good comes from abandoning reform of a decadent party so weak it can’t even bind it’s members? The campaign war chest, brand name, and entrenched two-party benefits are there for the taking.
People point to Bernie and complain about his voting or the debacle of his nomination as evidence that the establishment has a stranglehold on the party. The truth is that he’s done more to dismantle their stranglehold than anyone in modern history (yes, more than Trump, the Clintons, Obama or Biden): exposing that the boat can be rocked through the sheer populism of good economic policy.
We’ve now seen that simply running decent candidates in a similar manner (some farther left) doesn’t just threaten but overpowers them. The concerted effort against Mamdani, El-Sayed, Donavan McKinney and others has had middling-to-miserable results.
Simply continuing to vote blue when necessary and engage in primary insurgency drains their resources and weakens their grip. Voting with your conscience (read: no strategy) marks you as an “independent”, essentially a non-voter who can be safely ignored. Why bother listening to you when courting even a single red vote is double the value? You have no impact on their internal policies and can’t threaten them in a primary.
None of this is a compelling argument to vote in the general for a fascist who happens to align with the democratic party.
Again, I go back to Justice, Fetterman, Cuellar, Newsom, Rahm Emmanuel if he tries to run again. There’s no reason to support any of these people at any stage of the election process for any reason.
The fact remains that if you think voting is worthwhile for any reason (which we’re assuming for this conversation & I feel it is) then you need to organize and strategize with like minded individuals. You can freely choose where and when to do that, getting a consensus on who should run and when. But you can’t choose the system you’re running in or organize on the scale of tens of millions of people as a minority party. At the end of the day you still have to play around Duverger’s law and the election laws in your areas.
Let’s examine the real world USA voting process from the perspective of a theoretical group of like minded voters (we’ll call them the LMV) who’s goal is to quickly fill as many seats as possible with qualified, anti-fascist candidates. You can change their imagined tent pole tenets to be as wide or as narrow as you want so long as they want it done broadly and aggressively.
Unless the LMV are authoritarian and anti-democratic, the goal of every step of the voting pipeline should be building mass consensus on the best candidates [Plural! More on this later]. From candidate nomination to campaign platform building to debates to primary elections to general elections.
1.i. Looking for the best candidates in our tent automatically excludes the entire Republican ticket. Any supportable candidates in the pool, right now, are on the Democratic ticket
The large majority of US states have something other than a Top-N primary. In 45 states choosing to run an LMV 3rd party primary means automatically excluding yourself from the popular input of the 67%+ of the population who will end up voting in the general election.
2.i. Unless you have the party strength to fully fill an entire ticket with great candidates, it forces the general population to choose between your sparse LMV candidate pool and potentially good candidates running on the two party ticket
USA elections are a very tall vertical slice. Your ballot will have city mayors, county clerks, state governers, federal congressmen and (if efforts like the National Popular Vote Compact work) national presidential votes.
Conclusion A: From 1 + 2 + 3 it follows that a small collaboration of people looking to fill all seats with the best viable candidates while they grow without national sway/resources, ipso facto, should not be organizing as a formal 3rd party. Even with local or state success, there is a hard limit on how much success they can have until they hit a critical mass. ∴ the LMV must work within the Democratic party
Widespread political disinterest, apathy and forced disengagement is baked into the system by design. It best serves the interests of the duopoly to keep the general population so uninformed, busy, or distracted that they are effectively (or literally) disenfranchised. They want to select their voters and maintain their power by taking the entire spotlight of election seasons.
4.i. The system means voters don’t have a deep understanding of who is/isn’t on the ballot and who is paying for their campaign. They are unaware of anything but surface-level political jockeying. Beyond that, they don’t have the connections or the time to fact check every attack ad or candidate resume.
The political situation has gotten so dire that both sides of duopoly are clinging to their core by galvanizing their base and running solely against the opposition. Every race is couched in stopping the radical leftists or being not Trump. Neither side has a coherent platform, as evidenced by the MAGA 180° spins on war, tariffs, and national debt; the Democrat’s flip flop voting and weak opposition.
5.i. The mutual suppression leads to an ever smaller but more zealous and loyal voter base. Remember that changing policy, leadership or candidates is a non-option for the people steering both parties. They must focus all resources and narratives on hardening their base or the decay of their party will quickly be terminal. Unfortunately for us, they have the money and connections to do that
Since we’ve now established the LMV is competing as a Democrat bloc, you want your candidates to either lose early or win long. The tiny amount of campaign resources the LMV has means they must pick their battles.
6.i. On average, 1.i tells us that the LMV takeover will eventually run against decent or comparable candidates. The party leadership will sluggishly and daintily endorse compromise candidates to co-opt LMV momentum. That does not matter. The goal is control the elected seats, not control the fading party. Old guard leadership caving to progressive momentum only weakens their position.
To fight LMV insurgency, the unpopular Democrat leadership is put into conflict. They must drive their low turnout just enough to win their general elections but not fuel the populist progressive platform. They say “vote blue no matter who” but they really mean “vote blue if you’re hearing this and are one of demographics we want enfranchised”
Conclusion B: From 4 + 5.i we know that there is a certain portion of the population who will never risk anything but a Democrat vote in the general election, regardless of what the odds are or if they would spoil a good candidate. Add on 6.i + 7 and it becomes obvious that a very large blue turnout will help the insurgent progressive bloc. Even with the political illiteracy of 4.i, any populist platforms will naturally steer the voter to the progressive LMV bloc because the decaying party leaders are fundamentally opposed to them. It may not win every seat every time but the strategy is opportunist and will prevail in the long term.
∴ Aggregated over multiple elections and as a message to the average voting-eligible citizen: “vote blue no matter who” is a strategy that only helps progressives
Q.E.D.
…In case you haven’t seen the parallels, our LMV cohort is using the same strategy that is bringing the DSA success. If you support DSA and DSA-adjacent candidates as you’ve said in other comments, I hope you see their current positioning and how propogating non strategic voting hinders their efforts.
Obviously there are internal DSA conflicts over long term strategy (dirty break vs clean break) and this isn’t an eternal truth but I’ve yet to see any argument that takes an honest look at where the progressive bloc is right now, in 2026, and coherently argues for anything but more Democrat votes.
You say you shouldn’t ever vote for Fetterman but you can look at his platform and voting record and still say he made a better senator than Dr. Oz. In the final ballot we were faced with a pro-Isreal, pro-war fascist and an anti-vax, abortion banning, climate denying, pro-Isreal, pro-war fascist. Regardless of how successful the administration has been at forcing those issues, Fetterman was still the right choice.
The real failure was in lacking a better candidate in Fetterman’s primary, in which he was still the best candidate. If the other two had won, you’d be looking at a pro-Isreal, pro-war, anti-labor fascist