The fact that the vast majority of countries are already spending much more than necessary (yes, even assuming no help from the US) on their militaries and much less than necessary on social programs.
Since the main function of unnecessary military spending is to enrich already rich people and companies and social spending goes mostly to people poorer than average, this is straight up reverse Robin Hood policy.
That’s just not true. EU states spend tons of money on healthcare and other programs - the price is much higher taxation than US.
And now we have crazy ruskie try hard invading our neighbour and we’re paying tons of money to stop him.
And since Trump withdrawn support for Ukraine we have to pay even more to compensate for the crazy US jackass who wants to wage war in the middle east instead.
That’s just not true. EU states spend tons of money on healthcare and other programs - the price is much higher taxation than US.
Funny, I (a very high earner) moved from the US to Spain.
My taxes went from roughly 42% to 45%. I also now get health care and education for my kids at a fraction of the price.
I don’t get F-35s that crash in the rain as much, but I’m trying to somehow make due.
And now we have crazy ruskie try hard invading our neighbour
You ever think that maybe the US wasn’t sad about that, and in fact wanted that proxy war? Because they said openly they liked it - see the recently departed Lindsey Graham.
The US might benefit from these nonsense games - they certainly profited from LNG sales after they blew up NordStream. But unlike them, we live next to Russia, so maybe it might be in our interest to live peacefully with them, instead of demanding their complete submission to NATO.
No, it’s not. Because it shows exactly why your logic is nonsense.
The US has low overall tax rates - because it cuts the taxes for wealthy people while having tax on labor that is similar to most EU nations. It then also imposes large costs on middle class families to support its spending, which is very much pushed to the arms you seem to think are a good idea.
It is a thing, it just measures taxation in a different way.
What you linked is measure of what is officially considered as tax
Meanwhile spending to GDP measures every fee that state collected + deficit spending. That includes regular taxes, state run healthcare insurance, social security, deficit spending, fines, ect. You can find more about in under the term ‘Tax Freedom Day’
Oh, I’m familiar with that term. It’s marketing nonsense brought to you by the same people that thought the Laffer Curve was not only real, but that the United States was on the right side of it.
As even your article states, the argument against it is beyond simple, as the figure ignores what the taxes buy. And the exact point is that Europe, with slightly higher taxes, provides significantly more to its citizens for their taxes.
How does it do that? Well, it’s pretty simple - it spends far less on expensive weapons systems (which as the Iran War has shown are overpriced failures at best), and less on things that go to corporate bottom lines, like private medical care.
You ever think that maybe the US wasn’t sad about that, and in fact wanted that proxy war?
That alone is the argument for US involvement. If the goal is to damage Russia, the support should flow.
demanding their complete submission to NATO.
Maybe that’s a correct course of action against country ran by genocidal motherfucker? You seriously think you can live peacefully with Putler? Ukraine thought that too. Funny how that worked out for them
Maybe that’s a correct course of action against country ran by genocidal motherfucker?
What course of action - please be specific.
And note these same governments you’re saying should be arming Europe are currently arming Israel as well, a nation which unlike Russia (which has a CoE vote against it) actually has a full genocide displayed and levied by the ICC.
You seriously think you can live peacefully with Putler?
Given that Russia is next to Europe, are you suggesting instead that we invade Russia and kill hundreds of millions of people? Or overthrow their government?
No, of course not. Your plan is to fight Russia to the last Ukranian.
Ukraine thought that too.
You mean when the government was overthrown in 2014 to decide to join an anti-Russian alliance with a history of illegal invasions?
I don’t like Russia, but to pretend that they’re just evil orcs is the stupidity usually reserved just for Americans. We need a peace that will enable Europe and Russia to work together, not to have us bleed for the benefit of the Americans.
Given that Russia is next to Europe, are you suggesting instead that we invade Europe and kill hundreds of millions of people? Or overthrow their government?
You’re sick.
You mean when the government was overthrown in 2014 to decide to join an anti-Russian alliance with a history of illegal invasions?
WTF are you even talking about? Democratic elections?
So, no actual plan, just “let’s keep stoking the war fires then act surprised when they catch”.
Because you don’t think it’ll be you fighting, I’m willing to guess. Like most chickenhawks, you’re eager to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian - and no further.
Fun fact: the US spends more tax money on healthcare than almost every EU member state and STILL it’s so fucking expensive when it’s free at point of service in most of Europe.
How is that possible, you might ask?
By most of those tax dollars going to insurance and pharmaceutical company profits, marketing, and lobbying to prevent a better system.
And now we have crazy ruskie try hard invading our neighbour and we’re paying tons of money to stop him.
True, but guess what? The investment in that particular conflict already paid off so well that Russia is teetering on the brink of economic and military collapse, thus constituting a threat to anyone other than Ukraine and soon might not be even that.
And since Trump withdrawn support for Ukraine we have to pay even more to compensate
Nope. The war is as good as won already and the overwhelming success of the Ukrainian drone program means that they can pay for much more of it themselves now than in the beginning.
Tl;dr: there’s no good reason to cut social services OR increase military spending in most EU member states
Fun fact: the US spends more tax money on healthcare than almost every EU member state
I see what you did there. US has 5-10x the population than any single EU member state. What matters is spending per capita. Your argument is invalid.
Nope. The war is as good as won already and the overwhelming success of the Ukrainian drone program means that they can pay for much more of it themselves now than in the beginning.
It’s not. The frontline is a slaughterhouse with hundreds if not thousands of casualties every day, many of which are rotting on the battlefield as we speak.
If EU was properly armed, this war would be actually over, with borders restored and invader removed from Ukrainian territory. And increased military spending is necessary to ensure this clusterfuck of a war won’t happen again in the future
No amount of military equipment is worth shit if there’s nobody to operate them. What kind of loyalty does it inspire when the state will just abandon people because they were unwilling to consider other ways of funding the military? This isn’t America, Land of the Masochists.
Make poverty, and income and wealth inequality structurally impossible, then we can talk about reducing funding to social programs.
Money has to go from somewhere. And Trump isn’t exactly a reliable ally so EU has to increase their own defence spending.
Don’t know what’s controversial here
The fact that the vast majority of countries are already spending much more than necessary (yes, even assuming no help from the US) on their militaries and much less than necessary on social programs.
Since the main function of unnecessary military spending is to enrich already rich people and companies and social spending goes mostly to people poorer than average, this is straight up reverse Robin Hood policy.
That’s just not true. EU states spend tons of money on healthcare and other programs - the price is much higher taxation than US.
And now we have crazy ruskie try hard invading our neighbour and we’re paying tons of money to stop him.
And since Trump withdrawn support for Ukraine we have to pay even more to compensate for the crazy US jackass who wants to wage war in the middle east instead.
Funny, I (a very high earner) moved from the US to Spain.
My taxes went from roughly 42% to 45%. I also now get health care and education for my kids at a fraction of the price.
I don’t get F-35s that crash in the rain as much, but I’m trying to somehow make due.
You ever think that maybe the US wasn’t sad about that, and in fact wanted that proxy war? Because they said openly they liked it - see the recently departed Lindsey Graham.
The US might benefit from these nonsense games - they certainly profited from LNG sales after they blew up NordStream. But unlike them, we live next to Russia, so maybe it might be in our interest to live peacefully with them, instead of demanding their complete submission to NATO.
Your particular case is irrelevant.
If you look at total taxation as government spending in GDP, in US it’s like ~30%
In France or Germany ~50%
Your figures are just nowhere near reality - and this -
total taxation as government spending in GDPisn’t a thing.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue
No, it’s not. Because it shows exactly why your logic is nonsense.
The US has low overall tax rates - because it cuts the taxes for wealthy people while having tax on labor that is similar to most EU nations. It then also imposes large costs on middle class families to support its spending, which is very much pushed to the arms you seem to think are a good idea.
Its low quality of life isn’t unrelated.
It is a thing, it just measures taxation in a different way.
What you linked is measure of what is officially considered as tax
Meanwhile spending to GDP measures every fee that state collected + deficit spending. That includes regular taxes, state run healthcare insurance, social security, deficit spending, fines, ect. You can find more about in under the term ‘Tax Freedom Day’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day
It’s much better measure of actual burden of state ‘tax’ collection on the society because it encompasses everything.
Oh, I’m familiar with that term. It’s marketing nonsense brought to you by the same people that thought the Laffer Curve was not only real, but that the United States was on the right side of it.
As even your article states, the argument against it is beyond simple, as the figure ignores what the taxes buy. And the exact point is that Europe, with slightly higher taxes, provides significantly more to its citizens for their taxes.
How does it do that? Well, it’s pretty simple - it spends far less on expensive weapons systems (which as the Iran War has shown are overpriced failures at best), and less on things that go to corporate bottom lines, like private medical care.
That alone is the argument for US involvement. If the goal is to damage Russia, the support should flow.
Maybe that’s a correct course of action against country ran by genocidal motherfucker? You seriously think you can live peacefully with Putler? Ukraine thought that too. Funny how that worked out for them
What course of action - please be specific.
And note these same governments you’re saying should be arming Europe are currently arming Israel as well, a nation which unlike Russia (which has a CoE vote against it) actually has a full genocide displayed and levied by the ICC.
Given that Russia is next to Europe, are you suggesting instead that we invade Russia and kill hundreds of millions of people? Or overthrow their government?
No, of course not. Your plan is to fight Russia to the last Ukranian.
You mean when the government was overthrown in 2014 to decide to join an anti-Russian alliance with a history of illegal invasions?
I don’t like Russia, but to pretend that they’re just evil orcs is the stupidity usually reserved just for Americans. We need a peace that will enable Europe and Russia to work together, not to have us bleed for the benefit of the Americans.
You’re sick.
WTF are you even talking about? Democratic elections?
I’m blocking you, this goes nowhere.
So, no actual plan, just “let’s keep stoking the war fires then act surprised when they catch”.
Because you don’t think it’ll be you fighting, I’m willing to guess. Like most chickenhawks, you’re eager to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian - and no further.
Fun fact: the US spends more tax money on healthcare than almost every EU member state and STILL it’s so fucking expensive when it’s free at point of service in most of Europe.
How is that possible, you might ask?
By most of those tax dollars going to insurance and pharmaceutical company profits, marketing, and lobbying to prevent a better system.
True, but guess what? The investment in that particular conflict already paid off so well that Russia is teetering on the brink of economic and military collapse, thus constituting a threat to anyone other than Ukraine and soon might not be even that.
Nope. The war is as good as won already and the overwhelming success of the Ukrainian drone program means that they can pay for much more of it themselves now than in the beginning.
Tl;dr: there’s no good reason to cut social services OR increase military spending in most EU member states
I see what you did there. US has 5-10x the population than any single EU member state. What matters is spending per capita. Your argument is invalid.
It’s not. The frontline is a slaughterhouse with hundreds if not thousands of casualties every day, many of which are rotting on the battlefield as we speak.
If EU was properly armed, this war would be actually over, with borders restored and invader removed from Ukrainian territory. And increased military spending is necessary to ensure this clusterfuck of a war won’t happen again in the future
I WAS talking about per capita. Your ignorance is showing again.
The rest of your comment is just fallacious warmongering propaganda so blatant I won’t even dignify it with a rebuttal.
Orange numbers are from yesterday
Edit: Source, if you think I’m lying
https://mod.gov.ua/en/news/total-russian-combat-losses-in-ukraine-as-of-august-4-2026
What kind of argument is this?! Ukraine is not part of the EU.
Geopolitics are wider than EU borders
Ukraine already receives military aid from EU countries.
There’s no reason whatsoever for the EU to engage in open war with Russia.
Taking money from social programs to feed the military-industrial complex.
It’s quite clear.
Social programs aren’t worth shit, if they aren’t backed by security at national level
No amount of military equipment is worth shit if there’s nobody to operate them. What kind of loyalty does it inspire when the state will just abandon people because they were unwilling to consider other ways of funding the military? This isn’t America, Land of the Masochists.
Make poverty, and income and wealth inequality structurally impossible, then we can talk about reducing funding to social programs.
Right, buying F-35s is worth letting EU citizens starve or die from preventable diseases. Got it.
What a shit take.