The domain https://fediverse.observer/ redirects to sedo now.
On October 11th these two commits where made to the repo:
this will be my final release, glad to have contributed since 2011 to some fediverse stats, https://fedidb.com/ is a great resource with more interest
this software is no longer developed
Sad to have lost such a great resource.
Yeah I can’t fully explain the total fascination with apps either, but I do see some definite advantages including the ability to separate viewing other web pages separately from the app, like in fast switching or even side by side in like a split screen context when that is possible. And Firefox is horrible at memory management, even on Android - it legit runs down my battery even when minimized unless I force-kill it.
According to the comment at https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/28484007, PieFed vs. PyLova are still at odds. If there was attribution this time, I did not dig deep enough to find it, plus I highly doubt it. Although otoh PyLova seems to be included in the PieFed instance picker pages? So different devs seem to have different opinions on the subject.
Yes agreed about Voyager although tbf the vast majority of apps lack the cross-post comment merge feature in particular - according to https://piefed.social/community/fediverse/wiki/piefed-app only Interstellar has it now (which has an odd UI that is geared more towards Mbin’s microblogging style than Threadiverse forum-style content)
Really? I’ve heard it said that all someone has to do is figure out who or what they are not allowed to criticize. But I suppose there are layers, and indeed disinformation is a helluva powerful effect.
There’s always so much more to learn about the Threadiverse - I do find it fascinating:-). Though I also can see why others react as they do whenever it gets mentioned outside of here (Reddit, Bluesky, X, etc.).
I think PieFed.zip is just about as close to ideal as one could want, except for adding a block to Lemmy.ml by default for new users - or perhaps asking via the sign-up wizard, like “Do you want to see extremist content, including calls for murder?” Hey, some people do - sometimes me even for research purposes, and we can all appreciate having the option when that is desired, right? Nobody is wanting to be a “Karen” here and tell others what to do, only offer true choices to people who won’t yet be knowledgeable enough to be able to implement an instance block on their own yet - and again particularly to even become aware that they want one, in order to achieve their goal of avoiding both extremist and also trolling content in one fell swoop.
If you feel like it, you could petition to add such a block, although I’ve actually tried already in the past for a different instance, and there is such enormous resistance to doing so for Lemmy.ml that I doubt it would happen. Somehow even Rimu who has such a contentious relationship with the tankies doesn’t even do that? I do find it so odd that this is one of the most common refrains that I’ve ever heard across the Threadiverse - to be able to help newcomers block the entire tankie triad - yet not one single major instance seems willing to actually do it. We’ve made our choice, collectively: this is a tankie / troll bar. Regardless of the existence of an echo chamber inside of Lemmy.ml, outside of it we are 4chan when it comes to refusing to block the content coming in from it.
Which obviously mainstream non-technical normies nope right out, blocking that content the only way that they know how: by leaving the Threadiverse altogether (which already has exceedingly little OC to begin with, making the cost to benefit ratio simply too high).
Haha. I’ve never made that connection, but I also force kill everything after I’m done immediately using it. Hopefully we have a Servo (!servo@programming.dev) option before too long.
Yeah, I had a feeling. While Pylova instances are listed in the Piefed instance picker, piefed.social has “Silencing” quokk.au and anarchist.nexus. So, I doubt Mia/quokka is going to be trusting Rimu in the immediate future.
That’s a useful page I didn’t know about before. Thanks for sharing :)
I agree, to an extent, but I think it takes a significant effort to decide to question things to begin with. If everything and everyone you encounter in your life says the Sun revolves around the Earth, in my view, it takes something extra to not just find or notice a discrepancy, but also take the time/effort to go against everything you know, see, and encounter to pull on that thread and see what it reveals. Pulling on that thread could turn your friends/family/neighbors against you, it could threaten your livelihood or safety. In a non-supportive environment, I expect it’s quite scary and it’s much easier for someone to stick their head in the ground and carry on as if they didn’t notice the discrepancy.
For clarity, piefed.zip doesn’t block any of the ‘triad’. I believe the .zip instances marketed/known(?) as being open/non-restrictive. So, I don’t think the admins are interested in blocking any instances, unless they are spam or similarly problematic.
I suspect this has to do with the .ml admins being the Lemmy Devs, and Rimu needing to have a cordial relationship with them to maintain interoperability in the threadiverse.
I understand the feeling. It may help you to know that the ‘triad’ has decreased in total % of the threadiverse in the last 3 months. Also, look at the Threadiverse 3 years ago before the Reddit 3rd-party App Exodus, there was really only a few Lemmy instances to choose from (lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, sopuli.xyz, and a couple others). So, while many instances started during the exodus, most of the established communities and instances were part of the ‘triad’ and many new users would have joined the established instances/communities. I suspect if users could easily switch their accounts between instances, you would see a huge change in the distribution of the Threadiverse.
Perhaps some better on-boarding, about curation, could help improve the ‘stickiness’ of instances. It wouldn’t surprise me, if a change like that caused the slight decrease in users (between growth spikes) to even out, stabilize, and perhaps allow a slight increase in users to develop.
PyLova: agreed, sadly.
Disinformation: yes, exactly like MAGA. They aren’t bad people, just disinformed - as in actively utilized as tools to achieve the objectives of the one(s) pulling the strings. Arguably we should all resist such, but as you say the barriers against such are high, and I think we can agree that some people are simply too preoccupied with the basics of living to have either the time or inclination to become properly informed. One implication then being that it is the very foundational principle of democracy itself that works against its own demise: when unedumacashiated people are allowed to vote, chaos is not nearly as likely to result (from such “random” inputs) as the system being taken over by a malicious actor who may then use it for their own nefarious purposes.
But even so, that explanation neither absolves people of their failures in the absolute necessity to remain curious, nor absolves us of our own failure when we allow the system to propagate, and in fact help it along.
According to this post PieFed.zip uses the same blocking system as Lemmy.zip for new joiners. See also this comment from the admin. Like programming.dev, the .zip instances (like all other instances) can also block particular communities - which unfortunately neither the Lemmy nor PieFed UI offers a mechanism to expose that list publicly to the users, making the transparency of this issue rather horrible, where I have to link to messages from the admins but there is no webpage that will simply show an updated status - like does exist for instance federation vs. defederation. The tools here, again both Lemmy and PieFed, are abysmal at such transparency topics.
This is the kind of stuff that I would love to see added - to Lemmy, to PieFed, or to PyLova - and I feel like the increased transparency would help entice new joiners.
I understand that viewpoint, but my understanding is that there is not a “good” solution. If “education” or “knowledge” requirements are implemented, they are, or at least to my knowledge have been, used to disenfranchise the most vulnerable. An example of this could be the Southern States after the American Civil War. They implemented “literacy tests” biased toward the wealthy and whites to restrict the poor, minorities, and immigrants from voting. The “best” solution I’ve heard to stopping an uninformed populace is to educate the masses to develop critical thinking skills. Unfortunately, that “solution” is generally on generational timescales.
How do they know to “remain curious”? How did you learn to? How did I learn to? From my experience in life and learning from others about their lives, I’ve found I’ve had a quite privileged upbringing with regards to education and emotional support. This leads me to be quite generous in my view of people’s “failings”.
Anytime I run across someone “failing” to understand something I consider basic or common, I try to think back to when did I learn that and from whom. In most cases, the person or situation I learned from didn’t exist for the person “failing”. From that point, I try to, with no judgment of them, explain my reasoning and thought process to them (just as someone did for me). If they want to take in and consider my words, great. If not, that’s alright too. I could always be wrong about the topic, they could not be ready to change, or any other reasoning (you don’t need to force every seed to sprout, just keep providing a nurturing environment and you may soon find yourself surrounded by greenery).
Mostly I just try to be open minded myself (like I am truly open to changing my viewpoint to theirs) and provide an open and safe environment for others to consider alternatives. I find it works quite well.
“This means some of the spicier instances are blocked by default, which users can remove themselves in the user settings.”, “… piefed.zip (and lemmy.zip) already blocks hexbear, lemmygrad, and lemmynsfw by default, and sends a PM to the user when they sign up to let them know why we do this, and how to remove it.” Huh, TIL. I was going based on the listed instance de-federations (where they aren’t shown).
Great point. This might be a time to “weaponize” Pylova. Since Piefed has been “back-porting” Pylova’s work, if Mia implemented this transparency addition, it would probably make its way to Piefed. Maybe Lemmy would follow suit, but no idea. I’m thinking worst-case its implemented in Pylova and the Pylovians all benefit. Thoughts?
Edit: Switched a word for grammar.
I was thinking the same, just didn’t want to promise anything in case I could not deliver. The devs are VERY eager for feedback though, so it’s truly doing them a favor to ask, plus as you said most likely also a significantly wider userbase as well. Then again I think I’ve already asked for something vaguely similar in terms of general transparency features, although this is concrete hence much more likely to move forward (otoh there is a distinct possibility that I’ve already asked for precisely this, so I’d have to look it up). Edit: okay, done - https://discuss.online/post/46939614.
We seem mostly in agreement on other factors as well. Stoicism suggests that we cannot fix the entire world, we can only do what we can in our little corner of it. Personally I would hope that PieFed.zip would automatically apply a user-level block to new joiners for Lemmy.ml, the same way that it already does for hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml. Bc whatever we personally think about tankies or magats and how much we can stand to put up with their alternative factual argumentation practices, it remains that new people are extremely put off by such, and keep fleeing here when exposed to it, then subsequently complaining about us to anyone who will listen.
i.e., being kind to and/or having empathy with people who enjoy trolling behaviors is not the same thing as offering them a platform. Especially one where their messages are presented identically alongside with all other messages, such that new joiners cannot distinguish between them. A warning label, an icon, a different color highlighting etc. would go a long way. But that’s a ton of effort, which anyone using a 3rd-party app won’t be able to access anyway, hence blocking is all that is left, short of full defederation.
The alternative, which is the current method, is to simply get comfortable being a troll bar. We feature trolls here, we make them feel very comfortable, and offer only confusing methods to people and very little guidance to new joiners to avoid them.
Awesome! Upvoted :)
While I agree that would likely help new comers, I suspect the .zip admins have a similar thought process to Rimu (not antagonizing the Lemmy Devs, and keeping the lines of communication open in case there is an software issue).
I agree and block trolls immediately (“Don’t Feed Trolls!” is my motto online).
I thought previously a subscribe-able block list would be a great addition, at the user and/or the instance level. Users or instance admins could create a list of problematic users and/or communities and any updates automatically feed to the subscribing instances or users. Obviously issue is who gets authority to amend a list, but I think if the list was in a standard format and “forkable” it wouldn’t be too big of an issue for different groups to easily create and maintain their own lists without much issue.
This could be away to block the worst offenders/trolls without risking antagonizing the Lemmy Devs. Thoughts?
I don’t think we are “comfortable being a troll bar”, I think we are uncomfortable and taking steps, unfortunately slowly, to move past that phase of development. With ~80% of the Threadiverse on Lemmy and the Lemmy.ml admins being the Lemmy Devs, I think things have to move slowly (boil the frog slowly). There’s no way (to my knowledge) to switch instances to an alternative software (Piefed, Pylova, Mbin), so all the Lemmy instances are a little bit held hostage. I don’t currently see a way out from the hostage situation, but perhaps one will present itself in the future.
In the meantime, like you are saying, I don’t think that means things can’t improve with on-boarding or initial blocking for new users, to continue moving away from being a “troll bar”.
‘death to america’ is a hyperbolic idiom meaning an end to american imperial dominance, not a wish to harm american people. as an american myself i say it all the time. i want to see an end to the system, not the people living under it. ‘marg bar amrika’ has been a protest chant for 50 years and has been deliberately mistranslated by propagandists to demonize dissent.
what good is ‘america’ to the people it bombs, imprisons and impoverishes anyway?
To your point, I’ve heard this meaning before, although I don’t think it is commonly known to the general populace (which is also to your other point about propogandization).
Potentially against your point, if a slogan/idiom is being intentionally misused for misinformation, it might be time to move to a different phrase, rather than sticking with the corrupted one. Additionally, if multiple phrases could be utilized, it may get the point across better (less likely to successfully propagandize multiple options, than a single option). Although, I suspect propagandists would weaponize the ‘weakest’ commonly utilized option against the cause.
one example that comes to mind is the ‘from the river to the sea’ slogan; it’s a call for equal rights across historic palestine, but gets labelled as a call for genocide by detractors.
changing the slogans doesn’t help because the target isn’t the words, it’s the underlying demand. propagandists will weaponize whatever language you use if the politics behind it threaten them.
the way i see it conceding the rhetorical terrain just means constantly retreating to increasingly watered down language while the actual demand gets no closer to being heard.
I guess my point is a base/group can’t increase membership/size if no one knows what they stand for, or believe they stand for something else completely (misinformation propaganda).
Agreed.
I may not have previously conveyed my thought clearly. I never meant that any slogans/idioms should be watered down. More that they should be utilized like guerrilla warfare. By the time the propagandists have a counter to a slogan, the movement would have already moved to the next (the underlying sentiment/demand remains the same, the words relaying the goal are constantly shifting to prevent capture/misinformation propaganda).
Also, if a slogan doesn’t get countered by the time its switched out, the movement could go back to it again later. The slogan’s return could act as a unifier between the groups the different slogans energized, as I suspect different slogans will have different effects on different sub-groups, and returning to a prior slogan could let everyone know they are on the same team, even if they didn’t know that previously.