The administration of lemmy.ml routinely abuses its rule 1 anti-bigotry policy to conduct political censorship, deleting documented facts regarding the ukraine invasion, holodomor, and xinjiang abuses under false pretexts of imperialist propaganda, misinformation, and nazism while leaving pro-Kremlin talking points untouched.

Verifiable public moderation logs prove this systemic shielding of state propaganda, down to moderators inverting standard geopolitical context, such as noting that fringe extremist units do not make an entire democratic nation fascist, to ban dissenters under the explicit excuse of being a Nazi.

https://lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=25800386 and https://lemmy.world/modlog/446?page=1&actionType=All&userId=20355358.

The Europe community moderator (https://lemmy.world/u/geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml), who focuses exclusively on criticizing the West and never Russia or China, banned me as a Nazi.

I decided to block the lemmy.ml instance entirely to avoid any further interaction.

I see that there are dozens of relevant posts; you can find the relevant report posts here

Log screenshots

  • pelespirit@sh.itjust.works
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    15 hours ago

    The only thing that bugs me about it is that the largest instances can control what most people see.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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      13 hours ago

      The great thing about lemmy’s design is that that’s not really true. I’m seeing this criticism of .ml despite being on .ml, because most of the posts that I see on lemmy are not on my home instance. At least half the time, I’m having discussions outside of my “home turf.”

      When you have a space that agrees on certain base assumptions, it becomes easier to have more in depth and thoughtful discussions, because you don’t have to focus on just proving or advocating for those basic assumptions over and over again, and watching every word you say to make sure it can’t be twisted or misinterpreted to paint you in a negative light. By contrast, sharing a space with ideological opponents often means people tend to dig in and just make snipes at each other, everybody’s just grandstanding and trying to get owns in, and the level of discussion is brought down to name-calling and accusations.

      At the same time, yes, echo chambers are a concern. If you’re never exposed to opposing viewpoints, obviously that’s not great either. We can see that happen on any number of subreddits. And if we were on different subreddits instead of on different instances, I wouldn’t be seeing this criticism, and you wouldn’t be seeing my response to it.

      The way the fediverse is designed inherently addresses both of those concerns. You can have a space where the discussions assume a shared ideology allowing for in depth discussions, but then you’re also federated with other spaces with different shared assumptions. The “tankie” creators of lemmy designed it this way on purpose, for that reason. To allow minority views (including but not limited to their own) to have spaces for discussion, without becoming isolated. To allow for higher level discussions with shared assumptions while also allowing for interactions between groups with different assumptions.

      This is why all this hand-wringing over .ml’s censorship is kind of silly. Because people on .ml are constantly seeing content from other instances with completely different policies, and that is not in spite of what the .ml’s admins want, they literally designed it that way on purpose.

      The only censorship that really matters on the fediverse is defederation.

      • OpenStars@discuss.online
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        5 hours ago

        This is why all this hand-wringing over .ml’s censorship is kind of silly. Because people on .ml are constantly seeing content from other instances with completely different policies

        Literally nobody has ever claimed that users on Lemmy.ml are not allowed to see content on other instances - this is not merely a strawman argument but an absolutely ridiculous one.

        Please don’t bother to reply to this if this is the level of content that your messages will contain.

        For anyone else that is curious, the complaint is about the lack of transparency in describing what content is vs. is not allowed - a community of people discussing FOSS comes nowhere close to mentioning that you are not allowed to come close to criticizing Russia, China, or North Korea - e.g. it is not allowed to state that Ukraine is not the aggressor and that rather Russia is, or to state that Uyghurs are being killed by China.

        I really really really really really really really really wish that Lemmy would implement a true instance block so that I did not have to spend time reading such comments as this. But for some reason that option is denied to me. Go figure.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          5 hours ago

          It’s not really a strawman in that I never claimed anyone said it. It’s just that people talk about “censorship” and “echo chambers” and “they have to remove things to keep their users brainwashed” or whatever nonsense, ignoring the fact that the structure of the fediverse, as designed by the .ml admins, makes that more or less impossible.

          For anyone else that is curious, the complaint is about the lack of transparency in describing what content is vs. is not allowed

          OK, fair enough, they could afford to clarify the rules somewhat. But I don’t really consider that a huge deal. I’ve been banned from communities on .world for things that aren’t enumerated in the rules too. I don’t see why rules have to cover every possible thing.

          • OpenStars@discuss.online
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            3 hours ago

            Your argument that lemmy.ml cannot be an echo chamber due to it allowing other machines to store content that it disagrees with is noted. Btw nobody ever said that it was for that reason, so once again ridiculous.

            Your second whataboutism is also noted (counterpoint: 2 things can both be true at the same time) - and expected. Once again I reiterate that I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wish that I did not have to be subjected to this level of argumentation. But it seems that as long as I continue to use Lemmy, my only option is to block each account individually, over and over again, ad nauseum.

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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              3 hours ago

              Your argument that lemmy.ml cannot be an echo chamber due to it allowing other machines to store content that it disagrees with is noted.

              That’s one way to describe “designed a website where it’s virtually unavoidable to encounter opposing views.” At that point, you could describe me replying to you as me “storing content you disagree with on another machine” which makes your complaint about my reply existing sound just as silly.

              Btw nobody ever said that it was for that reason, so once again ridiculous.

              Btw, I never said that anyone said it was for that reason, so you are once again being ridiculous.

              Your second whataboutism

              Whataboutism is when you uphold consistent standards and expect others to do the same, understood.

              Once again I reiterate that I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wish that I did not have to be subjected to this level of argumentation. But it seems that as long as I continue to use Lemmy, my only option is to block each account individually, over and over again, ad nauseum.

              If you hate the fact that the devs structured the platform to force everyone to encounter opposing views and prevent echo chambers so much, I kinda have to wonder what you’re doing on the platform at all. The federated structure is literally in the name, fediverse. It’s like going to Burger King and being outraged at seeing burgers on the menu. Is it really that hard to find an echo chamber somewhere with only mainstream liberal views? That’s not really something the fediverse is designed for.

      • LuceVendemiaire@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        12 hours ago

        and those other instances can also moderate and delete comments and posts for all other instances unless archived or crossposted. If a lemmy.world mod deletes a comment in a lemmy.world post, I won’t be able to see it from over here in db0

        • OpenStars@discuss.online
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          5 hours ago

          Tbf this is true for all instances - it is simply how the ActivityPub Protocol works. The home instance “owns” the content, so if e.g. a Lemmy.world user submits a post to a community on Lemmy.ml, then other LW users won’t be able to see it if it gets removed, but the same is true vice versa if a ML user submits a post to a community located on LW.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          12 hours ago

          Because I disagree with the term. The admins are not “tankies,” they are Marxist-Leninists.

          What makes someone a “tankie” is that they “defend” certain states. In practice, “defending” often includes just refuting misinformation, for example, if I refute that “everyone in North Korea gets the same haircut” then I’m “defending” it and therefore a “tankie.” It can also mean acknowledging accomplishments, saying any good thing about any socialist state, like, “Cuba had a very successful literacy program,” which is just an objective historical fact. “Tankie” is supposed to mean someone who blindly supports everything a socialist state has ever done, in practice, it means someone who supports anything a socialist state has ever done.

          Before it was “tankie” it was “pinko,” and before that “red.” That kind of red scare bullshit has allowed blatant misinformation to run rampant, because even rational people avoid pushing back on it for fear of being labelled a “tankie.” As stories about how all communists eat babies or whatnot run rampant, it has in turn hurt the reputation of both leftists and liberals, because it literally doesn’t matter how hard you try to distance yourself from the far-left, you’ll still get associated with it. Joe Biden got called a communist for Christ’s sake. To put it another way:

          Purging the Left of communists became a longstanding practice, having injurious effects on various progressive causes. For instance, in 1949 some twelve unions were ousted from the CIO because they had Reds in their leadership. The purge reduced CIO membership by some 1.7 million and seriously weakened its recruitment drives and political clout. In the late 1940s, to avoid being “smeared” as Reds, Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), a supposedly progressive group, became one of the most vocally anticommunist organizations.

          The strategy did not work. ADA and others on the Left were still attacked for being communist or soft on communism by those on the Right. Then and now, many on the Left have failed to realize that those who fight for social change on behalf of the less-privileged elements of society will be Red-baited by conservative elites whether they are communists or not. For ruling interests, it makes little difference whether their wealth and power is challenged by “communist subversives” or “loyal American liberals.” All are lumped together as more or less equally abhorrent.

          • Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds

          That is why I put “tankie” in quotes.

          • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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            7 hours ago

            Lol the admins for .ml are %100 tankies, calling them Marxist-leninists is just a kinder term for “western children who excuse the authoritarian actions of dictators they agree with”. Trying to change history because it doesn’t put russia or china in a good light or trying to call the shit they do as “western propaganda” is just being a tankie.

            End of the day, you tankies want to be the ones sending others to the gulags and think you’d be in power in your coming revolution. To bad you’re a microscopic portion of the population that agrees with you and your authoritarian logic.

            You’re just the “left” wing version of maga, ignorant and will excuse your dear leaders of any wrong doing while sticking your fingers in your ears shouting fake news.

            • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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              7 hours ago

              the left version of maga are the democrat die hards.

              never met a war they didn’t support when it was team blue doing it.

              • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                7 hours ago

                Naa tankies are just as bad. You excuse the invasion of Ukraine by russia and all the other countries russia wants to attack… looking like Latvia is next on putins list, and I’m sure you’ll suggest they deserve it as well. You’re just as war mongering as maga is.

                • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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                  4 hours ago

                  Anyone who opposes any war will always be accused of supporting the other side, and as the other side is always painted as the aggressor no matter the conflict, those most opposed to war will always be painted as the most aggressive warmongers.

                  It’s no different from when I was labelled a “terrorist sympathizer” or seen as “supporting 9/11” when I opposed war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Opposition to building more tanks is literally the defining characteristic of a “tankie” for that reason, because if you don’t want to build more tanks, it can only be because you want the enemy to win. Meanwhile, those who support building and deploying tanks are seen as “peaceful.”

                  Real “war is peace” hours.

                  • BlaestEgnen@feddit.dk
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                    1 hour ago

                    So that was a lot of words to say nothing.

                    Do you think Russia is in a right to invade Ukraine?

                    It’s the most clear cut conflict in the world at the moment, anyone supporting Putin’s aggression has lost themselves to propaganda. Ukraine unfortunately didn’t get enough support early on, this conflict could had cost half the lives lost to date.

                    It’s miles apart to be against an aggressive occupational force with no clear goals, and not support a country’s right to defend itself.

    • Avid Amoeba@lemmy.ca
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      15 hours ago

      True. It’s definitely not a perfect, problem-solved thing. Merely an (significant?) improvement from the corporate status quo.